Jim
Were you a recreational diver before you were a technical diver? I was.
Jim Holcomb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*>
To: "Jack Farmer" <jack@ma*.th*.co*>; "Jim Holcomb"
<jimholcomb@x-*.co*>
Cc: "Techdiver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: Word of advice, Jack


> What is this rec.scuba crap doing on Techdiver to begin with? Those idiots
> over on rec.scuba are beyond all salvation. Hardcore rec divers live in an
> alternate reality, they cannot relate to tech diving anymore than a mole
can
> relate to walking on the moon.
>
> That entire list and the idiots who hang out over there are not worth the
> electricity it takes to run a computer.
>
> The only thing we can do is let Darwin decide who can progress to
technical
> diving. We will be waiting for them over here in Techdiver if and when
they
> survive. Then maybe we can teach them something.
>
>   Jim
>  -------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>
> > From: Jack Farmer <jack@ma*.th*.co*>
> > Organization: The Crusader BBS
> > Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 06:27:12 -0700
> > To: Jim Holcomb <jimholcomb@x-*.co*>
> > Cc: Techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Subject: Re: Word of advice, Jack
> >
> > And why NOT call a spade a spade? And why SHOULD Bullshit be ALLOWED in
the
> > first place?
> > Re-read what i wrote it's ALL explained in there IF you READ.
> >
> > L8R
> >
> > Jim Holcomb wrote:
> >
> >> Why do you NEED to call a spade a spade.  Why do you NEED to wade into
the
> >> bullshit.  Look Jack, the DIR philosophy can stand on its own merits
without
> >> a bunch of bullshit.  You aren't going to convert the opponents by
arguing
> >> with them - but by explaining specific issues in a rational tone the
word
> >> will be out there for the others to read. Here is an example, several
days
> >> ago on one of the recreational forums someone was asking something
about
> >> rigging a pony.  This was my response:
> >> http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=330635&t=330567
> >> Not once did I even mention DIR - not once did I say the dude was an
idiot
> >> for contemplating his idea.  As the thread unfolded the two individuals
> >> began to rethink their idea.  That's all you can do.  Say what you got
to
> >> say and move on to the next topic or question.  Don't involve yourself
in
> >> the bullshit.
> >> Jim
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jack Farmer" <jack@ma*.th*.co*>
> >> To: "Jim Holcomb" <jimholcomb@x-*.co*>; "Andrew Georgitsis"
> >> <andrewg@fi*.co*>; "anthony rue" <true@gu*.co*>; "Chris Werner"
> >> <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*>; "Dan Volker" <dan@sf*.co*>; "Jarrod
> >> Jablonski" <JJ@gu*.co*>; "John Walker" <techdive@ea*.ne*>; "MHK"
> >> <mhkane@pr*.ne*>; "Michael Hobson" <mhobson@pa*.ne*>; "pina"
> >> <pina3@be*.ne*>; "Sally Hooper" <sallyhpr@ea*.ne*>;
"tleemay"
> >> <tleemay@ne*.ne*>; "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
> >> Cc: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "Techdiver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 3:02 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Word of advice, Jack
> >>
> >>> Well here at least we are in partial agreement. YES DIR will grow from
the
> >> rec
> >>> divers somewhat interested in Tech side of things. Right now over
there
> >> with
> >>> gray etc on the loose anyone even asks a question about DIR gets
swamped
> >> with
> >>> bullshit and maybe you don't remember what it's like at that level BUT
new
> >>> divers ARE impressed by NAMES attacking esp when no NAMES are in
there.
> >> BUT ya
> >>> get a few guy's who call a spade a spade and are NOT afraid to wade in
> >> SHIT and
> >>> are willing to go tooth and nail even when they are NOT qualified that
> >> says to
> >>> the new guy hey there SOMETHING there maybe it's shit maybe it's NOT
but
> >> it is
> >>> SURE as hell getting people all fired up maybe I'll go check it out
for
> >> myself.
> >>>
> >>> THESE are the LURKERS who will hardly ever post. I've gotten many a
> >> PRIVATE
> >>> message thanking me for at least presenting a different side and being
> >> REAL
> >>> about it in a real way. They've told me they went on to the GUE ot
WKPP
> >> site to
> >>> see for them selves.
> >>>
> >>> These are the ones I'm talking to NOT rec.scuba know it all bull shit
> >> artists
> >>> like gray etc.
> >>>
> >>> Am I the best there is? HELL NO. I'm just in there trying. WHY? Well
as
> >> you
> >>> point out I'm NOT a TECH diver I'm NOT a NAME BUT I do know enough
from my
> >> own
> >>> experience to know JUST how NEEDED DIR is esp for the NEW guy like me
and
> >> many
> >>> others.
> >>>
> >>> The main reason I'm CC'ing in so many is that I'd like THEIR opinion
not
> >> just
> >>> yours or a few others.
> >>>
> >>> L8R
> >>>
> >>> Jim Holcomb wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Well, IMHO the DIR movement is going to grow through recreational
divers
> >>>> with an interest in technical diving.  Most of those who are already
> >> cave
> >>>> diving / wreck diving ect..  beyond recreational limits are already
> >> doing it
> >>>> their way.  Be it DIR or whatever.  Where the advocates of DIR can
have
> >> a
> >>>> profound effect is with these recreational divers.  The exposure they
> >> are
> >>>> currently getting in technical discussions consist of Gray on one
side
> >> and
> >>>> Farmer "articulating" the DIR philosophy.  That's kinda fucked up -
> >> don't ya
> >>>> think? The first exposure some of these folks have to DIR is out of
> >> Farmer's
> >>>> mouth!  As I've told Dan, I will address anything I PERSONALLY know
> >> about
> >>>> through my OWN limited experience - but what a lot of these various
> >> forums
> >>>> need are experienced DIR advocates who can articulate a message to
the
> >>>> uninformed without pissing all over their foreheads. THAT is where
the
> >>>> change will take place - NOT after someone has already bought $10,000
> >> worth
> >>>> of dive shop to clip off to themselves.  Get them before they take
the
> >> first
> >>>> Cavern class OR, better yet, get them before they take their Advanced
> >> O/W
> >>>> class.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jim
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
> >>>> To: "Dan Volker" <dan@sf*.co*>; "Jack Farmer"
> >>>> <jack@ma*.th*.co*>; "Jim Holcomb"
<jimholcomb@x-*.co*>;
> >>>> "Andrew Georgitsis" <andrewg@fi*.co*>; "anthony rue"
<true@gu*.co*>;
> >>>> "Chris Werner" <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*>; "Jarrod Jablonski"
> >>>> <JJ@gu*.co*>; "John Walker" <techdive@ea*.ne*>; "MHK"
> >>>> <mhkane@pr*.ne*>; "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>; "tleemay"
> >>>> <tleemay@ne*.ne*>
> >>>> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:03 PM
> >>>> Subject: RE: Word of advice, Jack
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dan, we can't post there because we can not go into enough
background
> >> info
> >>>>> to get these people to where they can understand what we are talking
> >>>> about.
> >>>>> They know you and you know how to deal with them. I can not be
talking
> >> a
> >>>>> serious talk and have a piece of shit like Mike Gray yapping at me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just break is down to two components: bullshit and diving. Tell Gray
> >> and
> >>>> the
> >>>>> other morons to skip the bullshit and discuss the diving. They can
not
> >> do
> >>>> it
> >>>>> intelligently, so they should be no problem.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Dan Volker [mailto:dan@sf*.co*]
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:33 PM
> >>>>> To: Jack Farmer; Jim Holcomb; Andrew Georgitsis; anthony rue; Chris
> >>>>> Werner; Jarrod Jablonski; John Walker; MHK; pina; tleemay; Trey
> >>>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> >>>>> Subject: RE: Word of advice, Jack
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> REc.scuba has a couple of anti- DIR people with huge amounts of time
> >> on
> >>>>> their hands, and an axe to grind against any DIR idea or person.
Mike
> >> Gray
> >>>>> is one, Dan Brakuk is another. Gray actually created a "movement" in
> >> which
> >>>>> he has been getting recreational divers to "want" to call themselves
> >>>>> "Strokes", and he calls himself a member of "Team Stroke".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> While Jack Farmer has made few friends on rec.scuba with his style
of
> >>>>> posting, if he has the time, and wants to throw the bullshit flag at
> >> Mike
> >>>>> Gray several times per day, that might not be such a bad thing ;-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As long as Jack does not actually "represent" DIR, and as I
remember,
> >> he
> >>>> has
> >>>>> stated that he does "NOT"  on multiple occaisions, he can be a
> >> positive
> >>>>> force--in that he could "tie up" an extremely negative force ( Mike
> >> Gray).
> >>>>> To this end, I'd tell Jack to "go get'em ".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Better still, a few GUE or WKPP trained divers could post more on
> >>>> rec.scuba
> >>>>> , and occaisionally get a WKPP or GUE endorsement  ( George or
Jarrod)
> >> for
> >>>> a
> >>>>> controversial position which is being argued in one of the longer
> >> threads.
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Dan Volker
> >>>>> www.sfdj.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: jack@we*.th*.co*
> >> [mailto:jack@we*.th*.co*]On
> >>>>> Behalf Of Jack Farmer
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 4:45 PM
> >>>>> To: Jim Holcomb; Andrew Georgitsis; anthony rue; Chris Werner; Dan
> >>>>> Volker; Jarrod Jablonski; John Walker; MHK; pina; tleemay; Trey
> >>>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Word of advice, Jack
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> OK Jim #1 I'm in NO WAY trying to be a cheer leader for anyone.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If that's the impression you got it's WRONG.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> #2. I'm NOT nor ever WAS trying to sell anything to anyone and
stated
> >> MANY
> >>>>> times I spoke ONLY for myself and my own experiences and opinions.
> >> When
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> there twist that to mean what they want it to then argue about what
> >> THEY
> >>>>> think
> >>>>> I MEANT rather that what i plainly SAID I could care less what THEIR
> >>>> opinion
> >>>>> is.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> #3. It's been my experience from lurking on rec.scuba for several
> >> years
> >>>>> BEFORE
> >>>>> I ever posted anything that there are a few figure heads in there
who
> >> make
> >>>>> up
> >>>>> that cliché and THEY run rec.scuba the rest follow along. Mike Gray,
> >>>> PopEye
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> name 2 of the more obvious ones. Then there is a guy names ZACK whom
I
> >>>>> forced
> >>>>> over several days to admit publicly there he's lied about a
statement
> >> he's
> >>>>> made
> >>>>> about something Trey was supposed to have done that i called him a
> >> liar
> >>>> on.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> These are the guy's I'm out to deal with NOT CONVINCE OR CONVERT
just
> >> show
> >>>>> up
> >>>>> for what they are.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Frankly George can speak for himself and does not need me OR you to
> >> speak
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> him I don't and never tried to. if he wants me to shut up HE'll be
the
> >> one
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> tell me and until he does I'll assume he could care less and do what
i
> >>>> feel
> >>>>> like like the rest of us do.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dive Safe.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> L8R
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jim Holcomb wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I know we have already discussed this once, but let's try again.
> >> The
> >>>>> REASON
> >>>>>> why some people seem to carry more influence on rec.scuba than they
> >>>> should
> >>>>>> is because there are some (with no personal technical experience)
> >> that
> >>>>>> insist on trying to be a cheerleader for George and his team.  When
> >> your
> >>>>>> general diving population reads some of these folks posts and later
> >>>> learn
> >>>>>> that they have no personal experience in the area they are trying
to
> >>>> speak
> >>>>>> it adds credibility to those who have some technical experience but
> >>>> insist
> >>>>>> on doing it wrong.  The folks on rec.scuba are rec divers.  They
> >> will
> >>>>> listen
> >>>>>> to the person who seems to have the most experience on a particular
> >>>>>> subject - right or wrong. On the flip side - when folks lacking
> >>>> experience
> >>>>>> in a particular arena attempt selling of a philosophy it results in
> >> the
> >>>>> rest
> >>>>>> of us being called DIR fanatics, mindless drones, George wannabes,
> >> WKPP
> >>>>>> wannabes and the list goes on.
> >>>>>> With George and his team's list of accomplishments, they are quite
> >>>> capable
> >>>>>> of spreading the word and educating the recreational diving
> >> population,
> >>>> in
> >>>>>> general, and the technical diving population, specifically.
> >>>>>> So as a favor to me and many other inexperienced cave and wreck
> >> divers
> >>>> who
> >>>>>> have adopted the DIR philosophy toward our
> >>>>> diving..........Please......Shut
> >>>>>> up!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jim
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Jack Farmer" <jack@ma*.th*.co*>
> >>>>>> To: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "Sally Hooper"
> >> <sallyhpr@ea*.ne*>
> >>>>>> Cc: "Marie" <scubagirl@di*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:18 AM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: DCS incident
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ya know Trey over in rec.scuba HE would be considered to be a
> >> supreme
> >>>>>> authority
> >>>>>>> on Tech diving.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Man it just keeps going on and on and on and on etc.......
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I finally REALLY understand why you seem at times short tempered.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> hahaha
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Safe Diving.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> L8R
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Trey wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Marie, you are a complete moron. I run the most successful dive
> >>>>> project
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> diving and have LONG AGO sought out and used the real resources
> >> in
> >>>>> this
> >>>>>> game
> >>>>>>>> that have allowed us to do what we do so successfully, and have
> >>>>>> accumulated
> >>>>>>>> a track record that you will never understand, as well as
> >> developed
> >>>>>>>> decompression techniques that are now recognized as the correct
> >> way
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> do
> >>>>>>>> this, and have nothing to do with the slop out of DAN , PADI or
> >>>> Navy.
> >>>>>> Why
> >>>>>>>> don't you find out who and what we are before you get on here
> >> like
> >>>> an
> >>>>>> idiot
> >>>>>>>> and start recommending that we all go re read our PADI tables.
> >>>> Should
> >>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> stay three squares from a black box, Marie, or is the good "doc"
> >>>> still
> >>>>>>>> trying to figure that one out?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Notice that the original question addressed me, not you, and the
> >>>>> correct
> >>>>>>>> answer was given. This is not rec scuba, by the way. If you
> >> think
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> word
> >>>>>>>> "bullshit" is "profanity", then maybe you should stop
> >> bullshitting.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'll start sending everyone to you , PADI and DAN when they ask
> >> me a
> >>>>>> deco
> >>>>>>>> question. Your vast experience reading "Alert Diver" will be a
> >> big
> >>>>> help
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> them all, I am sure.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Marie [mailto:scubagirl@di*.co*]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:03 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: techdiver@aquanaut.com; trey@ne*.co*
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: DCS incident
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Well Trey,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Here are some tips for you:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1)  Look before you leap.
> >>>>>>>> 2)  That looks like a pretty nasty case of hoof in mouth.
> >>>>>>>> 3)  It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth
> >> and
> >>>>> remove
> >>>>>> all
> >>>>>>>> doubt.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> All I was trying to do was help you guys out, but you obviously
> >>>> don't
> >>>>>> care
> >>>>>>>> to know the truth.  If you were interested in expanding your
> >>>>> knowledge,
> >>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>> would have looked into what I said before you open your mouth
> >> and
> >>>>> spewed
> >>>>>>>> profanity (obviously the only way you know how to communicate).
> >> Try
> >>>>>>>> checking with DAN or PADI or try reading any one of the over 100
> >>>>>> studies,
> >>>>>>>> articles, and papers he has had published. Or contact the
> >> Undersea
> >>>>>> Medical
> >>>>>>>> Society about the many presentations he has given or
> >> participated
> >>>> in,
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>>>> contact the Undersea Hyperbaric Medical Society and find out why
> >> Dr.
> >>>>>> Powell
> >>>>>>>> is a high respected member.  Or you could contact NEDU (Navy
> >>>>>> Experimental
> >>>>>>>> Dive Unit).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For any of the rest of you who may be interested in expanding
> >> your
> >>>>>> knowledge
> >>>>>>>> of DCS with more than just Trey's hot air, feel free to follow
> >> up on
> >>>>> any
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> the resources I have mentioned.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Marie
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> trey@ne*.co* wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Bullshit. My favorite line here is "during which time he
> >> directed
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> human-subject tests of the DSAT/PADI Recreational Dive
> >> Planner."
> >>>>>>>>> This give
> >>>>>>>>> new meaning to the term "face the wheel".
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The fact is that the guys who know the most about this are the
> >>>>>>>>> ones who work
> >>>>>>>>> with sources who actually are involved in serious diving . If
> >>>>>>>>> this guy had
> >>>>>>>>> any contribution to make to this game, we'd know about it.
> >> What
> >>>>>>>>> he has is
> >>>>>>>>> the party line that does not work and is why we see these
> >>>>>>>>> accidents. Wake up
> >>>>>>>>> and smell reality.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The Navy comment is also just too funny.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> >>>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >>>>>>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> >>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
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> >>>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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> >>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> You Don't HAVE to be NUTS to be a SysAdmin./WebMaster. BUT it Helps!
> >>>>> http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com
> >>>>> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
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`techdiver@aquanaut.com'..
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`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >>>
> >>> --
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> >>> http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com
> >>> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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> >>> PS PE Y PGP- t-- 5 X- R- tv+ b++ DI++++ D G- e h--- r+++ z+++
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
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`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'..
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
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> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
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> > http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com
> > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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> >
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> >
>
>
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