Just so you know, the Mount Everest of quarry diving is Gilboa, at 140 ft,
the obligatory paddlefish and zebra mussels, as well as the predatory
rainbow trout. Although Jim, you do seem a bit familiar with France Park.
Were you a Quarry Commando in a previous diving  life? Or a wannabe
Commando? We can cure that if you wish!

Now, I read this board to determine if tech diving is for me, and to learn
from the "leaders" in the area. I have taken George's comments on
conditioning seriously. I have no cartilage in one knee, and the resulting
arthritis; had a laminectomy  at L4-5 (I think); and tendonitis in both
shoulders from years of swimming and water polo. From my reading on DCI,
these might make me predisposed to getting bent. That's why I am going at
this slowly, and reading boards like this. So I can learn, make an informed
decision for myself and steer students in the direction they wish to go as
well. That's why the questions. Deckers answer seemed succinct, and knowing
how laid back he is, if he got pushed to the edge, anyone can. I can see
that now. No one wants a fatality, least of all at the hands of the trip
leader



Preston Hobbie
www.thehobster.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cobb [mailto:cobber@ci*.co*]
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 7:54 AM
To: Capt JT; hphobbie@at*.ne*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: The Doria 3rd trip

JT, how can you be so crass. Just for your information, France Park Quarry
is known as the Mount Everest of quarry dives. Not only do you have to
contend with the deadly spoon-billed sturgeon fish but every diver is
required to do at least 20 reps on that train axel assembly. Plus to date 14
divers have been lost doing deep penetrations of that 1940 school bus. It's
a gruelling dive and should not be sold short.

   Jim
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/

> From: Capt JT <captjt@mi*.co*>
> Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 20:46:17 -0400
> To: <hphobbie@at*.ne*>, <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Subject: RE: The Doria 3rd trip
>
> Hi Preston
> Don't know what it is your looking for exactly here and not sure if you
can
> call those things you do as trip leader ( I checked your site, real hard
> trips you be leaden there bud ;-)  ) anything  that compares. I would just
> tell you to ask Rick, but he doesn't play games on these list. So I pretty
> can much answer  for him and he won't say shit on this list or any other
> list different from what I say.... He knows why I asked him and so do the
> guys I wanted him to talk to..... it's who SHOULD do it, not who YOU think
> should do it..... Get a grip, you don't know a single person on that trip
> or how our group works among ourselves..... There ain't but one guy in our
> group that works as hard as I do about safety and that's Dave. Got a real
> question, ask it... Stop playing in the pan, jump right in the fire, it
> doesn't burn long...... and that last thing you say, your so lost you
ain't
> got a clue.....
>
> JT
>
>
>
>
>
> At 06:57 PM 7/21/01 -0500, Preston Hobbie wrote:
>> While I do not personally know Capt JT, I love the opening flash of the
>> website, and have enjoyed the repartee he has with George. However, as a
>> neophyte in technical diving, but a 30 year diver and trip leader, I have
to
>> question the "mad at everything" and "seclusion" statements. I have had
bad
>> days and been overwhelmed by Mr. Murphy in my career however, to exclude
>> oneself from all activities on "your" trip seems a bit outlandish. I get
the
>> feeling of a "me vs. them " attitude which is decidedly unhealthy.
>>
>> Secondly, to tell Rick to talk to the guys about not doing penetration
seems
>> to be an abrogation of responsibility as trip leader; then this was made
>> worse by you packing up and going after artifacts (before losing your
>> goodies).
>>
>> On the plus side, I have been to Christina Young's website as well. She
>> strikes me as  a most competent, professional individual. If she dives
with
>> Capt JT, he must be better than OK. I'm just wondering where we are on
the
>> scale here?
>>
>>
>> Preston Hobbie
>> www.thehobster.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:17 PM
>> To: vbtech@ci*.co*
>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; FLTechDiver@mikey.net
>> Subject: Re: The Doria 3rd trip
>>
>> With 2 trips completed to the "Andrea Doria" I was looking forward to
>> diving with some of the gang from the VBTech group. Still I was tired
from
>> the 2 earlier trips and was very fearful of anything happening, at least
>> these guys would listen to me I thought, we dived together all the time.
>> Maybe I could even get a good dive in.....
>>
>> Pete had signed up for all trips and he was collecting artifacts on
almost
>> each dive, before the group arrived I had asked him to refrain from
showing
>> these guys any artifacts he had and when he brought them up to not let
them
>> see it, to just put it away. I did not want them to get "china fever" as
I
>> did on my first trip to the wreck and do something really stupid. He
agreed
>> because he knew what I was talking about, he'd seen it before....
>>
>> Everyone was arriving and loading gear when one of our mates made the
worst
>> move that could be done, we had been at the dock for a day and a half.
She
>> waited until now to pull out a china plate given to her by a customer as
a
>> token of his affections and started to clean it in front of everyone then
>> wrap it in paper and ask Rick to store it in his Van... I was pissed....
I
>> could see it in their eyes with the milling about, joking around as I
>> believed they  were showing signs of getting ready to make a bad
decision.
>>
>> I held a briefing and explained to everyone that only 2 divers on this
trip
>> had the skill and knowledge about the wreck to go where Pete was going
and
>> unless I had told them personally to follow him I was not talking about
>> them.... It worked for one dive I think....
>>
>> I also explained how some of them would become "unwrapped" on the first
>> dive and make mental mistakes, the wreck has a "stigma" to it and
sometimes
>> causes divers to have gear problems on their first dive to it, I used my
>> leaking mask on my first dive to the wreck in 99 and Tom on his first
dive
>> when he  forgot to hook up his crouch strap as examples .... These things
>> happen and they did on this trip.... Mask came off, fins came off,
drysuit
>> hoses left off, all mental mistakes.....
>>
>> Everyone found that the wreck was , just that a wreck, nothing different
>> from the others we have dived to a point. It is my opinion that this is
>> where divers become victims to the wreck, not giving it the respect it
>> deserves, not many wrecks offer the massive penetration dives the Doria
>> can, many who come dive the wreck are very good at depth dives, ocean
>> dives, and wreck dives. Very few can boast they have done wreck
penetration
>> dives that actually START at 200ft, you must do everything right on these
>> dives, no room for error. It seems that those who die on this wreck have
>> less than 10 dives to it, it also seems those who say it is easy also
have
>> less than 10 dives to it, choosing to dive the outside where it is easy
and
>> their skills best suited, a safe dive in the scheme of things..... It
goes
>> without saying the vis and temp cause others problems, only those who
don't
>> do it would say different.....
>>
>> After 2 dives some in the group began whispering about going in and
finding
>> something, thinking I was asleep, looking at the drawings. Pete came to
me
>> and told me the same thing I was hearing, I went to Rick and told him to
>> talk to some of the guys, they weren't ready for that kind of dive, its a
>> fools bet to say you can.....
>> Being disappointed invites mistakes, I choose to try and recover
something
>> that caught my eye on a previous dive, I loaded my toolbag with reels,
lift
>> bags, and tools. There is an old saying "don't put all your shit in one
>> bag", I must have forgot... I jumped in the water and the snap came
>> undone... I watched it sink much faster than I could have caught it, I
>> never will risk my life over any gear, I let it go... over 500 dollars in
>> stuff.... I went down the anchor line and went in the direction the bag
>> should be, Pete had sent up one of those rectangle windows on a liftbag
and
>> reel then secured it at the anchor, I gave it no thought. But when I
>> started having line fall on me, I realized he had gotten his window and
it
>> was his line falling on me, I untangled myself and I now had a line
secured
>> at the anchor to help me look for my bag of gear, good deal..... I
>> scootered out over the hull and towards what is called the dark side of
the
>> wreck letting the line slide through my fingers to guide me back, I came
>> across a huge crack in the hull it was burping bunker oil and I got it
all
>> over me...... I had to wash me, my drysuit, and my scooter with joy to
get
>> the bunker off..... I now hated the wreck....
>> I retreated back to my seclusion as I did on the second trip,
disappointed
>> in the whole trip, refusing to dive and save myself for anything if
>> necessary , mad at everything everyone .
>>
>> Pete being the diver he is gave up one of his honey holes in an effort to
>> keep them safe, not everyone was talking foolishly, but it only takes one
>> to fuck up a trip..... I would not speak to anyone, I stayed in my bunk
and
>> only came out to check the weather and eat.....
>>
>> Capt Charlie came to me and said the weather forecast was bad, we had
time
>> for one more dive. Everyone was surprised to see me mixing and a couple
>> said "I thought you weren't diving anymore", I said I'm not, this is for
un
>> tieing.....
>>
>> Everyone made their last dive, Capt Charlie and I were happy to be
leaving,
>> just one more and we were done...... Everyone was on board but 4 when I
>> went to unshackle.... and I have already told what happen next... What I
>> did not say is how happy I was to see everyone working to the same goal
>> when the seizure happened, everyone did what they were suppose to......
>>
>> As I reread this report I can see it gives the trip a negative
appearance,
>> it just shows how stressful these kinds of trips can be on those who run
>> them. It also reflects how past trips I have been on have scared me for
>> life I think...... Would I do it again...yes... cause I love to dive....
>>
>> JT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in
the
>> water"
>> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
>> Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
>> Email     captjt@mi*.co*
>>
>>
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>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>>
>> --
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>
> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in
the
> water"
> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
> Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
> Email     captjt@mi*.co*
>
>
> --
> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>


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