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Aloha Trey, Have taken the liberty of combining your relevant emails into this post for clarity (and to some degree brevity). This is not necessarily an exhaustive effort, for example I did not include the response I posted to George's comments (or his comments), merely your retort (see message dated 6/19/2001 at 12:15 AM) because it was germane to the subject at hand. Nor did I include my response to your one-liner (see message dated 6/19/2001 at 12:21 AM), nor your message to Jim Cobb and my response. I apologise for taking several days to answer, but have been busy at work and had a *great* many responses to the messages I posted below (not to mention the two messages referenced in the above paragraph). And many thanks to all the folks who privately expressed their support. All that said... Trey you ignorant slut! First, you state below that "[y]ou are the one who started this argument". Not so. All I wrote was that the "NACD or NSS-CDS are good certification agencies". You decided to take exception to this, and have since bombarded both me and TechDiver with emails declaring that I am "obviously a complete moron"; "have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in any sense", and "you have absolutely no clue what we do or how we do it or what is involved, and are in no way qualified to even mention any of it." OK, I stipulate that you are absolutely correct (about me). I know nothing. Have been fed bullshit. Don't know a damn thing about your program. Am an absolute stroke with (almost) no hope of redemption. Save me. Convince me of the superiority of your agency, its training program and instructors to that of the NACD, NSS-CDS and the instructors I listed. But do it rationally and substantively -- without name-calling or denigrating people. Below, all you've done is some name-calling and hit-or-miss shots at the guys I offered up. If your program is so damn superior, surely you can do better than that. Believe it or not, I think the diving GUE and the WKPP is doing is simply outstanding and that you're probably one hell of a diver. I'm glad there is a GUE and that it supports high diver certification standards. But I just can't stomache the bullshit immature attitude and us-versus-them mentality. If your program is really *all that*, why not adopt a "killing them with kindness" stance? Right now I don't want to dive with you, no matter how good your technical skills or tempting the dive site. Now, I'll agree that I don't much about you -- only what you write about yourself. But, and this is the point, you know absolutely nothing about me. And yet, I've endured name-calling and ad homien attacks for simply suggesting that other agencies besides GUE might be worth considering for cave certification. Let's just put it like this: I came to this "discussion" with few preconcieved ideas about either you or GUE -- if I hold any negative connotations you've created them. Remarkably, though you seem to believe otherwise, the tech divers, cavers and instructors I spend time with don't really spend much time or effort 1) worrying about you and what you think, and 2) saying anything about you or GUE or the WKPP. And I know, I asked *several* instructors on the list I sent you about GUE and the WKPP -- no one bad-mouthed them, although one or two wouldn't answer at all. In fact, more than one expressed admiration for WKPP dives, and the teamwork and methods used to conduct those dives safely. Simply put, it's time to grow up and get the chip off your shoulder. Regards, Dave >On 6/20/2001 at 11:44 PM, Trey wrote: > >Dave, I am saying that "instructors" who themselves are not participating in >anything but teaching are not capable of offering the level of information >that the active divers can provide. Now you tell me , one more time, what >any of these people do for diving other than teach it for a living and or >set the worst possible examples , like Hienerth, Bird, Rennaker, etc. You >can not name one of these guys who does anything or is actively involved in >anything but teaching. > >You seem to think you know all about me and what we do, and the fact is you >have no idea, and the reason is that your "information" comes from those who >do not do it and have a big problem with those who do. > >Now I am making my case quite clear. You are the one who started this >argument and threw out five names that prove my point, not yours. Tell us >all why these guys are so good, and why what they are doing and teaching is >such a good idea. Start with "knowing when to leave your buddy", then tell >me about deep air diving, then tell we can get into the personal behavior >and example of some of these guys, like the NACD "training director" who >stands at the edge of the spring smoking his last cigarette before starting >class. > >You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in any sense here. > > >On 6/19/2001 at 12:21 AM, Trey wrote: > >You obviously are a complete moron . > > >On 6/19/2001 at 12:21 AM, Trey wrote: > >OK, the first five do no real diving, participate in nothing but teaching. >The last one is one of the worst examples in diving. Buddy leaving, stroke >rigs ( like long hose on the wrong post ), deep air, etc. > >Ostrich ? deep air, teaching a gas course while himself on air, stroke gear, >etc. > >Rennaker? Teaches "knowing when to leave your buddy", "who's the most >important diver", stroke gear, no clue about any form of real diving. > >None of these guys participate in anything but teaching. None of them do >what we do, none of them can teach what we can teach, which is the real deal >from constant and current experience with real diving . > >It is clear that you have been indoctrinated with bullshit, and have failed >to ask any important questions, and as such are in the dark with a bad start >and nowhere to go, like these guys. > > >On 6/19/2001 at 12:15 AM, Trey wrote: > >Dave, why don't you tell me what diving other than instruction is done by >that idiot Bird or Larry? Let me tell you something, big time - you and the >rest of the nobodies can yip and yap about bullshit all you want, but you >can't touch the real thing. Ask your boy Larry Green how he came to decide >diving the long hose is the right way - when I plugged him with mine while >he was drowning because he could not find a working reg on his bullshit gear >nine years ago. What you and the rest of the strokes don't get is that these >guys go nowhere and learn nothing and do nothing. The real action continues >to be with the usual crowd, of which none of these guys are part. > >I got "certified" CMAS by Parker Turner who was Director of WKPP at the >time, and was trained by Lamar English and Bill Gavin, both WKPP divers. >Anything and everything I ever learned came from WKPP people and WKPP >resources and contacts - NOTHING from any of the other agencies. > >GUE was started by Jarrod Jablonski to teach the things that the rest of >these guys will never know, and you have absolutely no clue what we do or >how we do it or what is involved, and are in no way qualified to even >mention any of it. > > >>On 6/18/2001 at 5:18 PM, Dave wrote: >> >>Bird Oestreich >>Bill Rennaker >>Larry Green >>Dustin Clesi >>Paul Heinerth >> >>How about an objective evaluation, not name calling. >> >>I also would have recommended Steve Berman, but didn't for obvious reasons. >> >> >>>On 6/17/2001 at 11:38 PM, Trey wrote: >>> >>>Tom Mouth signed mine and he has never done a single dive in his life that >>>even approximates anything I do - the fact is the course content is >>>bullshit and what you need in an instructor is somebody who does real diving >>>, not just instruction. >>> >>>Go ahead an put your short list on here and I will tell you what is wrong >>>with all of them. Try it. >>> >>> >>>>On 6/17/2001 at 1:47, PM Dave wrote: >>>> >>>>NACD or NSS-CDS are good certification agencies (am both), what really >>>>makes a difference is the instructor -- pick a good one (will recommend >>>>from the several I know off list). BTW my cave instructor signed JJ's IT >>>>cards. >>>> >>>> >>>>>On MMDDYY ay HHMM, Brad wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Hello all- >>>>>I am wanting to learn the right way to do cave dives. This is obviously >>>>>going to be GUE, but I don't think I am ready for GUE yet, as I have no >>>>>other cave/cavern training. I have been thinking about doing the NACD >>>>>courses to help prepare me for the GUE courses, but wanted to get the >>>>>general concensus as to how well put together the NACD course really is. >>>>>Thanks in advance for any advice I can get!! -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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