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Scott, No offence intended but I think you need to grow a little thicker skin, this is techdiver you know. You can call me "Paltz" if it makes you feel any better.... I'm generalizing here. PADI represents a very large population of the diving community, the other "recreational" agencies typically follow suit when PADI makes a turn. Like it or not, it's just reality. I think you're taking my dislike for PADI as a personal attack! It isn't unless you're a PADI instructor and in that case I guess you could be offended. Anyway, since PADI represents a large population of divers in the world, that's where I made the generalization about "lots more" divers needing to care (about decompression theory). Re-read what I said, I did not say "all" divers but "lots more" are going to care. I stick with my statement that if they don't care, they should care if they are going to take any "tech" classes requiring decompression, even if it's given by PADI..... If most NOTROX divers don't know that first thing about the math to calculate MOD or EAD then that's the fault of the instructors and the agency too! We are obviously at odds on these issues. I have taken many courses from PADI, TDI and IANTD, so no, I'm not just learning from my buddy, but have learned from the agencies. PADI is a good organization for what it is. A recreational organization. I don't have a crystal ball, I'm actually using my mind and not just following what someone has told me. Let me guess Scott, you're a PADI instructor or DM, right? I think that would explain your position. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist or someone with a view into the future to foretell where the diving industry is going. Sorry if you took my post as a personal attack, it wasn't intended that way. I still think my statements are correct or will be in the future. Wish there was a wall to pin my "predictions" as you call them to a wall and be able to come back to them in 10 years to see if they were correct. We could then continue this conversation then to see how far off base I was. There is a difference between having a crystal ball and using your head to think about something and coming to a logical conclusion. Art. a.k.a "Paltz" if it makes ya feel any better..... -----Original Message----- From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [mailto:ScottBonis@ao*.co*] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:03 AM To: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: Re: Gadgets and Grandma's car, WAS Re: O2 Sensors on tanks Hi Art, First off, I would appreciate you're addressing me in the correct manner. And for your information that's either as Scott or as Dr. Bonis. Next time you try with only a last name, I will not even respond. Let's have just a modicum of respect here. Next you say << I think the general population of divers may not care about it now, but now that the money machine that is PADI has gotten into tech, lots more are going to care. Hell, even if they don't care, they should... >> I'm certainly glad you're here to tell the entire population of divers what they "should" be doing. Talk about conceit! Next you say << ... Now you are going to have people following computers and the calculated deco schedules. They'll end up doing 4 dives a day, all requiring minor decompression, then they'll get bent... >> I certainly envy your crystal ball in being able to foresee the future. But from the previous posting, why does having a Nitrox computer predict requiring decompression any more than any other computer. Remember my statements, the ones to which you are supposedly responding, talked only about sport divers in the recreational realm, not technical diving. And it's amazing how you can foretell that << ... then they'll get bent ... >> Next, before you start to criticize PADI for anything, why don't you at least try to find out just what the PADI TecRec Deep Diver course includes. It is impossible for me to have a reasonable discussion with you on the subject when you don't have even an inkling about the subject on which you are trying to pontificate. What I'm saying is basically put your mind to work before putting your mouth (or keyboard) into gear. Continuing on you say << ... Don't kid yourself into thinking that the general population is not going to know anything about decompression theory in the next 5-10 years or so. Look at NITROX! 10 years ago it's voodoo gas and now PADI has everyone thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread! >> Thanks again for predicting the future, it really is impressive. But even today, the average Nitrox diver hasn't the foggiest idea of the basic theory behind Nitrox. He only knows that he can stay down longer if he doesn't go too deep, pays a little extra for his gas and uses Nitrox tables or a Nitrox computer. In fact SSI proudly states that NO equations are needed to become certified to dive Nitrox. And BTW, that's no Dalton's law. Then you say << ... I think the next logical money maker for them is PADI tech which has to include decompression and stuff. They'll do like they did with NITROX, educate people, and come up with a simple approach and teach/charge the hell out of it. >> Personally, I find nothing wrong with this. PADI will teach and the students will pay and learn. Sounds fine to me. Next you say << If all they tell them is to go down, don't come up till your computer tells you to and you'll be OK, then they are going to get sued. >> I need to agree that IF that's all you tell them ... But I also need to repeat my previous statement "It is impossible for me to have a reasonable discussion with you on the subject when you don't have even an inkling about the subject on which you are trying to pontificate." And finally you say << I'd go as far as to say that with 10 years you'll have PADI teaching Trimix below 130 foot! >> Boy, there goes that crystal ball again. I've taken the time to answer your posting because I believe it was so far off base that we're not even playing in the same ball park. PADI is a huge organization that has done more for the sport of SCUBA diving than you can possibly imagine. Yes, it has it's faults, but it has lots of strengths also. Yes, it makes money for it's instructors by their teaching courses and I for one think that that's really good. You OTOH, seem to think that's bad. Yes, it has lots of courses and I think that that's good. You OTOH, think that's bad. Yes, it makes it's courses extremely simple and easy to understand and I think that that's good. You OTOH, think that's bad. Yes, it's great at marketing and I think that that's good. You OTOH, think that that's bad. I think you need to get a life. You may want to do technical diving, get taught by your buddy for free and tell the rest of the world how they should think and how they should dive. But l'll let you in on something. In a battle between you and the rest of the world, the winning bet is going to be on the world. Take care and dive safe, Scott Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the restraints and scramble up out of the pit. In a message dated 6/13/01 8:42:49 PM, Art.Paltz@R2*.CO* writes: << Bonis, I think the general population of divers may not care about it now, but now that the money machine that is PADI has gotten into tech, lots more are going to care. Hell, even if they don't care, they should. Now you are going to have people following computers and the calculated deco schedules. They'll end up doing 4 dives a day, all requiring minor decompression, then they'll get bent. I think that from a legal standpoint PADI and the other agencies are going to have to teach the students about deco theory. If all they tell them is to go down, don't come up till your computer tells you to and you'll be OK, then they are going to get sued. PADI and others will at a minimum have to cover some deco theory just to cover their asses in a court of law. That way they can do what they do today and say, "we taught them this and they did that so it's there fault not ours...." Don't kid yourself into thinking that the general population is not going to know anything about decompression theory in the next 5-10 years or so. Look at NITROX! 10 years ago it's voodoo gas and now PADI has everyone thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread! If there is money to be made, PADI will find a way. I think the next logical money maker for them is PADI tech which has to include decompression and stuff. They'll do like they did with NITROX, educate people, and come up with a simple approach and teach/charge the hell out of it. There are plenty of people out there that all they like to do is stay in courses and take classes. That's how you get instructors teaching after a year of getting certified themselves. PADI's a money making machine! I'd go as far as to say that with 10 years you'll have PADI teaching Trimix below 130 foot! PADI is great at getting students to take more and more courses. They push you to either go until Dive Master or get that stupid "Master Scuba Diver" certification, that one really cracks me up! :) Art. >> -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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