on 6/1/01 6:33 PM, Jim Cobb at cobber@ci*.co* wrote:

> For the math behind deco check out the links I just put up with Eric Bakers
> stuff. The Fortran source code is there if you are really into it.


Cannot connect to 4.35.217.148:49504 - Connection refused.

Jim, this is what comes up. Is there a problem with the link?

Steve


> 
> Tables software is a tool. You give a guy a set of building plans, this does
> not make him a carpenter. You give a guy a deco software this does not make
> him a tech diver.
> 
> But looking at the plans and studying them carefully can give you insight as
> to how a house is built. Running tables on a deco planner can give you
> insight on how deco works.
> 
> Sure you can learn the math and the egg-head theory but why waste the time.
> Get Decoplanner and do hypothetical dives. Read Eric Bakers stuff (which
> while quite interesting is way over my head) if you wish.
> 
> What I like to do on deco planner is do a range plan and study it, you can
> see the trends and extrapolate in your head what the deco should be between
> a set of bottom times quite easily without needing to do mathematical
> calculations in your head. Trust me, you will have plenty of other things
> which will need your full and undivided attention during your dive.
> 
> Jim
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
> 
>> From: Steve <sfkenney@ea*.ne*>
>> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:45:51 -0700
>> To: Jim Cobb <Cobber@ci*.co*>, Z <mzurl@be*.ne*>, Fltechdiver
>> <fltechdiver@mikey.net>, Tech Diver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> Subject: Re: TriMix Computer Vote RESULTS
>> 
>> 
>> "learning deco so that one does not need a computer or tables,"
>> 
>> I didn't just pull this one out of my hat, this is advocated by a respected
>> diver. This is the way I want to conduct my helium deco dives. Bottom timer,
>> depth gauge and the knowledge. My diving is easy to manage 10-40 minutes
>> bottom time and not very deep. If I keep my EAD to less than 100' and O2
>> less than 1.4 then managing the helium slow ascents and extra stops is the
>> next step. I don't want to learn the lazy way with a laptop and deco
>> software to cut tables. I want to know the math behind the theory. I will
>> check into those books you mention. Thanks for the advise.
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> on 5/31/01 8:57 AM, Jim Cobb at Cobber@ci*.co* wrote:
>> 
>>> Steve-
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the complements o
>> 
>>> n the website, I appreciate it. You need to read
>>> it a  bit more carefully, however, as the answers to your questions are
>>> contained within the web site.
>>> 
>>> I am also concerned at your self-imposed 150' air limit, I think that an EAD
>>> of 100 is a bit more appropriate. From the general tone of your post I think
>>> that perhaps you may need a few more dives under your belt and perhaps some
>>> training and/or tutelage on the practice of Deco diving.
>>> 
>>> You don't really "learn" helium, all He does is make your dive safer. What
>>> you
>>> really need to be very good at before you do serious Deco diving is gas
>>> management, Deco bottle preparation and utilization. You really need to be
>>> perfectly comfortable under water in all conditions and not have any
>>> tendencies to stress out when problem arise, and indeed problems *will*
>>> arise
>>> sooner or later.
>>> 
>>> You also need to make sure your gear is squared away, no stupid bullshit
>>> like
>>> OMS stuporwings, steel stages, suicide clips, convoluted hose routing etc.
>>> Use
>>> DIR guidelines (www.gue.com) and don't listen to the "old school"
>>> techdivers,
>>> there are currently better ways to do things which are make techdiving more
>>> survivable, particularly to the newbie.
>>> 
>>> Then dive your gear. Dive rec profiles with full doubles and stages and
>>> practice, practice, practice. Helium is your friend, Oxygen is the thing to
>>> worry about, it's the O2 that will kill you.
>>> 
>>> On the tables, it is insane to think that you can do gradient calculations
>>> in
>>> your head, as one rocket scientist claimed he could do. After you do a whole
>>> bunch of dives using a tables calculation program you begin to see trends on
>>> how your particular Deco profile shapes up.
>> 
>>> Deco is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination. A Deco
>>> program
>>> takes mathematical theories, various fudge factors and applies them to all
>>> physiological types in all underwater situations. Wish things were that
>>> simple.
>>> 
>>> Every individual is damaging his or her body to a certain extent when Deco
>>> diving. You try to manage the damage, and the body repairs itself quite well
>>> in most cases. As it is your body only you can tell when your profile is not
>>> quite right and you need adjust appropriately. And you gain this knowledge
>>> through experience and research. It is your ass.
>>> 
>>> So go back to the drawing board, Steve, and read my website, the books I
>>> mention, Techdiver archives and anything else you can get your hands on
>>> concerning Deco theory and practice, practice, practice.
>>> 
>>> Jim
>>> 
>>> On Thursday, May 31, 2001 12:40 AM, Steve <sfkenney@ea*.ne*> wrote:
>>>> I take it you are the webmaster on the trimix site? Very good work BTW,
>>>> it's
>>>> a home mixers dream come true. I would like to try some helium diving this
>>>> year. I'm somewhat concerned about the side effects, stiff joints flu like
>>>> symptoms, problems from rapid ascents. Why do you need to make slow
>>>> descents
>>>> when using helium? With all the talk about the danger of deep air, I've set
>>>> my limit at 150'. I want to learn to dive helium without computers and
>>>> without cutting tables, just have the knowledge to calculate on the fly as
>>>> I
>>>> go.
>>>> 
>>>> Steve
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> on 5/28/01 5:25 PM, Jim Cobb at Cobber@ci*.co* wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Once you cut your tables you need to carry them down somehow. Some like to
>>>>> tape them to flat plastic slates. Others combine a bottom timer to a
>>>>> conformal
>>>>> plastic slate. Mike Zurl contributed a nice page on how to make one where
>>>>> you
>>>>> don't need to use duct tape to write your numbers on.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jim
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:42 PM, Steve <sfkenney@ea*.ne*> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jim, what do you mean about your new wrist slate section? I'm not
>>>>>> positive
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> want to get way into tech diving because I'm 48 years old but I do want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn about it. Decompression theory is interesting and it's affects on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> body is relevent to me even if I don't go real deep. I may decide down
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> road to volunteer for a recompression chamber.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1) Tables
>>>>>> 2) No tables and no computer
>>>>>> 3) Math equations??
>>>>>> 4) Tabletop software programs
>>>>>> 5) Wrist Computers
>>>>>> by order of preference
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> on 5/27/01 10:35 AM, Jim Cobb at cobber@ci*.co* wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Get yourself a cheap laptop, Decoplanner from www.gue.com, see my new
>>>>>>> wrist
>>>>>>> slate section, purchase a uwatec bottom timer. Then take the $1000 you
>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>> and get yourself a proper set of wings, doubles and regs. If tech diving
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> what you want to get into, then you are all set. If you simply have to
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> computer for non-trimix deco dives then go for the DiveRite or Suunto
>>>>>>> Viper
>>>>>>> which has a gauge mode you can use for when you do the deep stuff.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From: Steve <sfkenney@ea*.ne*>
>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 09:43:57 -0700
>>>>>>>> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>, Z <mzurl@be*.ne*>,
>>>>>>>> Fltechdiver
>>>>>>>> <fltechdiver@mikey.net>, Tech Diver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: TriMix Computer Vote RESULTS
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I didn't see the post where I could vote on computers. I don't think I
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> buy one for $1900 unless I was a professional diver and they were
>>>>>>>> proven
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> work well. Are there two brands on the market now, Dive-Rite and Abyss?
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> believe they monitor three gases and you can switch gas on the fly,
>>>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>>>> impressive.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What are the options for a beginner tech diver?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1) Tables
>>>>>>>> 2) Tabletop software programs
>>>>>>>> 3) Wrist Computers
>>>>>>>> 4) No tables and no computer
>>>>>>>> 5) Math equations??
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Steve Kenney
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> on 5/25/01 3:54 PM, Jim Cobb at cobber@ci*.co* wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yes, this vote shows that there are 21 IANTD instroketors on Mikey's
>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>> here and 4 normal people. This might explain why you boys seem to have
>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>> a hard time filling tech trips down there, not enough trimix
>>>>>>>>> computers...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, moving right along...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Z" <mzurl@be*.ne*>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:23:09 -0400
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Fltechdiver" <fltechdiver@mikey.net>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: TriMix Computer Vote RESULTS
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ALL -
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> At this time, it appears anyone who was going to vote did so.  As a
>>>>>>>>>> result,
>>>>>>>>>> I have decided to release the results of the first DeeperStuff
>>>>>>>>>> Technical
>>>>>>>>>> Dive Debate.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Question:
>>>>>>>>>> Would you use a wrist-mounted TriMix computer?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> RESULTS:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> NO     4
>>>>>>>>>> YES    21
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> YES BY A LANDSLIDE !!!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Z's Analysis:
>>>>>>>>>> To some, it might appear that voter turnout was low. I believe this
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> due
>>>>>>>>>> to a small population of trimix rated divers to begin with.  Since
>>>>>>>>>> FLTechDiver is monitored by hundreds' I suspect many were afraid to
>>>>>>>>>> vote
>>>>>>>>>> due
>>>>>>>>>> to their lack of experience in this area.  Although I will not
>>>>>>>>>> divulge
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> names of those who voted, many are well respected "mix" divers, and
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>> a couple  admitted currently owning a "mix" computer.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I will admit the landslide surprised me.  I figured we were in for a
>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>> closer tally.  This also confirms what I have always believed, that
>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>> monitor these lists without voicing their opinion which is in direct
>>>>>>>>>> contradiction to a few VERY vocal participants.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Someone asked me how I was going to vote.  For the record, I said
>>>>>>>>>> "YES"
>>>>>>>>>> (if
>>>>>>>>>> I could find a mix computer I liked that is)!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Z
>>>>>>>>>> www.deeperstuff.com
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>>>>> To contact the list administrator, email
>>>>>>>>>> Mike Rodriguez at mikey@mi*.ne*
>>>>>>>>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to:
>>>>>>>>>> listserv@mi*.ne*
>>>>>>>>>> and in the *BODY* of the message type:
>>>>>>>>>> unsubscribe FLTechDiver
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'..
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>>>>>>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
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>> 
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> 
> 

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