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--------------F42DE10DE0ACB01F872117D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr. Cobb: I am a long time Tech Diver lurker, but I feel that I must come out of the woodwork to add my views on this issue. I feel that you were quite hard on the original poster, who appeared to be asking his question in good faith. However, given that you thought that the message was a troll, well, that would explain your response, but it does not justify it. I have been diving for over 11 years now. This fellow has only been diving for three, and is taking additional training to build up his skills. Well, I did the same thing in my early diving days. So let's think back to when we were first diving. We all know that diving is a sport that carries significant risks that we can mitigate, but never eliminate. The new diver and the instructor are in a dependent relationship. The instructor is the Leader; the new diver follows the instructions of the Leader. New divers rely upon the instructor to use his/her experience, wisdom and judgement to provide proper guidance and coaching regarding safe dive procedures. It is a relationship of trust. When an instructor requests, suggests, or influences a trainee to conduct an unsafe procedure, that instructor is abusing his/her position of trust. Because the instructor has a position of authority based on (supposed) superior knowledge and experience, when the instructor tells the trainee to do something, it is only natural for he trainee to feel "forced, pressured, bullied, harassed, etc." Does that mean that the trainee stops thinking for him/herself? Of course not. The original poster recognized that something was wrong about being asked to dive so deep on air. But we have the subtleties of the Instructor/Trainee relationship at work here. The Instructor said "Just Do It", so it must be safe, right? Well, actually, no. But most students trust the instructor - and comply. These subtleties of the Instructor/Trainee relationship are what Trey and his group have identified as potential killers of dive trainees. In this instance, the Dive Instructor instructed the student to conduct a dangerous procedure. In addition, that Instructor should have known that the procedure was dangerous. If he did not know of the danger, he was negligent. If he did know, then he had a callous disregard for the life of the student. The blame in this incident - and that's what this is, a Dive Incident - belongs with the instructor. However, we need to get the message out to all dive trainees and new (under 3 years) divers: No matter who asks you to do something, no matter the amount of experience, years diving, certificates on the wall - if it doesn't sit right with you, JUST SAY NO. Sincerely, Norm Nopper Jim Cobb wrote: > To be honest with you I thought this message was a troll, I had no idea the > fellow was serious. > > But the point here is, and I keep stressing this, it is YOUR ass. Nobody > cares about your ass but you, never forget that. There are 20 Billion people > out there locked in a battle for survival and whether you live or die won't > make a tit of difference to 99.99999% of them. > > There are instructors out there who turn the crank, move 'em in and move 'em > out. That's how they pay the rent and buy the food, that's how they survive. > If they loose a student here or there, no big deal, the poor slobs signed > the multi-page disclaimer. > > Let's face it, this is a dangerous sport and for one to approach it with > anything but a deadly serious attitude is nuts. For one to be up enough on > the dangers of deep air and do it anyway for the sake of a piece of plastic > with their face printed on it is beyond nuts. And the issue of monies lost > or not pales in comparison to whether you will live or not and is hardly an > issue unless you truly are nuts. > > Think about it. > > Jim > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > > > From: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*> > > Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:45:56 -0700 > > To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>, Tech Diver <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > Subject: Re: Its on Deep air Taboo i know BUT please help > > > > I think this is why people don't come here for advice. The guy > > already understands that deep air is bad, he realizes what he did is > > stupid, and he is asking for help. Let's lighten up on him, eh? > > > > Jim Cobb wrote: > > ~ > >> Forced my ass, did somebody put a fucking gun to your head? This > >> email is so stupid, I can hardly comprehend it. 110 EAD on deep > >> dives is the limit, 100 better. Who is this instrokter of yours? Why > >> did you stick with him even though you propose to know better? Did > >> you enjoy being narced out of your gourd? Did you even remember the > >> dive? This is like saying the bartender FORCED you to drink those > >> shots of vodka and the FORCED you to drive home. Do you want to die? > >> Is death what you are looking for? If it is then let dive > >> instrokters FORCE you to do deep air but don' t come back and haunt > >> me about it. > >> > >> Jim > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > >> > >> > >> From: NyWrecker@ao*.co* > >> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:17:17 EDT > >> To: cobber@ci*.co* > >> Subject: Its on Deep air Taboo i know BUT please help > >> > >> > >> Ive only ben diving for about 3 years.Im VERRY aware of this deep air shit > >> BUT i have asked a few people for a limit and cant get an answer.To start off > >> the rec limit is 130 on air.Last summer i was FORCED to go to 150-160-3 times > >> and 180 on it.The MOD on the 180 was 220.I know stupid BUT it was with a > >> TDI-IANTD instructor so what do you expect.I tried to get him to let me use a > >> mix but he wouldnt and i thought he wouldnt but i had to try.So my Q is > >> this.What is the max for air and what would you use past that depth and to > >> what depth???Im not interested in going deeper than say 250 max.Them 300-400 > >> and deeper dives you guys do aint for me more power to you.Im impresed but it > >> just aint for me.Thanks > >> Ed > > > > > > -- > > Paul B. > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. --------------F42DE10DE0ACB01F872117D6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Dear Mr. Cobb: <p>I am a long time Tech Diver lurker, but I feel that I must come out of the woodwork to add my views on this issue. I feel that you were quite hard on the original poster, who appeared to be asking his question in good faith. However, given that you thought that the message was a troll, well, that would explain your response, but it does not justify it. <p>I have been diving for over 11 years now. This fellow has only been diving for three, and is taking additional training to build up his skills. Well, I did the same thing in my early diving days. So let's think back to when we were first diving. <p>We all know that diving is a sport that carries significant risks that we can mitigate, but never eliminate. The new diver and the instructor are in a dependent relationship. The instructor is the Leader; the new diver follows the instructions of the Leader. New divers rely upon the instructor to use his/her experience, wisdom and judgement to provide proper guidance and coaching regarding safe dive procedures. It is a relationship of trust. <p>When an instructor requests, suggests, or influences a trainee to conduct an unsafe procedure, that instructor is abusing his/her position of trust. Because the instructor has a position of authority based on (supposed) superior knowledge and experience, when the instructor tells the trainee to do something, it is only natural for he trainee to feel "forced, pressured, bullied, harassed, etc." Does that mean that the trainee stops thinking for him/herself? Of course not. The original poster recognized that something was wrong about being asked to dive so deep on air. But we have the subtleties of the Instructor/Trainee relationship at work here. The Instructor said "Just Do It", so it must be safe, right? Well, actually, no. But most students trust the instructor - and comply. <p>These subtleties of the Instructor/Trainee relationship are what Trey and his group have identified as potential killers of dive trainees. In this instance, the Dive Instructor instructed the student to conduct a dangerous procedure. In addition, that Instructor <i>should have known</i> that the procedure was dangerous. If he did not know of the danger, he was negligent. If he did know, then he had a callous disregard for the life of the student. <p>The blame in this incident - and that's what this is, a Dive Incident - belongs with the instructor. However, we need to get the message out to all dive trainees and new (under 3 years) divers: No matter who asks you to do something, no matter the amount of experience, years diving, certificates on the wall - if it doesn't sit right with you, JUST SAY NO. <p>Sincerely, <br>Norm Nopper <br> <br> <p>Jim Cobb wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>To be honest with you I thought this message was a troll, I had no idea the <br>fellow was serious. <p>But the point here is, and I keep stressing this, it is YOUR ass. Nobody <br>cares about your ass but you, never forget that. There are 20 Billion people <br>out there locked in a battle for survival and whether you live or die won't <br>make a tit of difference to 99.99999% of them. <p>There are instructors out there who turn the crank, move 'em in and move 'em <br>out. That's how they pay the rent and buy the food, that's how they survive. <br>If they loose a student here or there, no big deal, the poor slobs signed <br>the multi-page disclaimer. <p>Let's face it, this is a dangerous sport and for one to approach it with <br>anything but a deadly serious attitude is nuts. For one to be up enough on <br>the dangers of deep air and do it anyway for the sake of a piece of plastic <br>with their face printed on it is beyond nuts. And the issue of monies lost <br>or not pales in comparison to whether you will live or not and is hardly an <br>issue unless you truly are nuts. <p>Think about it. <p> Jim <br> ------------------------------------------------------------------- <br> Learn About Trimix at <a href="http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/">http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/< /a> <p>> From: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*> <br>> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:45:56 -0700 <br>> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>, Tech Diver <techdiver@aquanaut.com> <br>> Subject: Re: Its on Deep air Taboo i know BUT please help <br>> <br>> I think this is why people don't come here for advice. The guy <br>> already understands that deep air is bad, he realizes what he did is <br>> stupid, and he is asking for help. Let's lighten up on him, eh? <br>> <br>> Jim Cobb wrote: <br>> ~ <br>>> Forced my ass, did somebody put a fucking gun to your head? This <br>>> email is so stupid, I can hardly comprehend it. 110 EAD on deep <br>>> dives is the limit, 100 better. Who is this instrokter of yours? Why <br>>> did you stick with him even though you propose to know better? Did <br>>> you enjoy being narced out of your gourd? Did you even remember the <br>>> dive? This is like saying the bartender FORCED you to drink those <br>>> shots of vodka and the FORCED you to drive home. Do you want to die? <br>>> Is death what you are looking for? If it is then let dive <br>>> instrokters FORCE you to do deep air but don' t come back and haunt <br>>> me about it. <br>>> <br>>> Jim <br>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- <br>>> Learn About Trimix at <a href="http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/">http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/< /a> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> From: NyWrecker@ao*.co* <br>>> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:17:17 EDT <br>>> To: cobber@ci*.co* <br>>> Subject: Its on Deep air Taboo i know BUT please help <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> Ive only ben diving for about 3 years.Im VERRY aware of this deep air shit <br>>> BUT i have asked a few people for a limit and cant get an answer.To start off <br>>> the rec limit is 130 on air.Last summer i was FORCED to go to 150-160-3 times <br>>> and 180 on it.The MOD on the 180 was 220.I know stupid BUT it was with a <br>>> TDI-IANTD instructor so what do you expect.I tried to get him to let me use a <br>>> mix but he wouldnt and i thought he wouldnt but i had to try.So my Q is <br>>> this.What is the max for air and what would you use past that depth and to <br>>> what depth???Im not interested in going deeper than say 250 max.Them 300-400 <br>>> and deeper dives you guys do aint for me more power to you.Im impresed but it <br>>> just aint for me.Thanks <br>>> Ed <br>> <br>> <br>> -- <br>> Paul B. <br>> <p>-- <br>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. <br>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</blockquote> </html> --------------F42DE10DE0ACB01F872117D6-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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