JT, maybe this guy is a dentist and he knows that you can come off of
nitrous oxide with oxygen. I guess he means that when you deep air dive, you
can kill the hammer job off by going to deco gas. This is so stupid that
both you and I missed it. Maybe they teach this in TDI along with "get off
the helium as fast as you can" - what the REAL idiots do.

-----Original Message-----
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 6:00 PM
To: David Norton; Trey; Techdiver
Subject: RE: Trimix Computers


At 10:32 PM 5/29/01 -0700, David Norton wrote:
>As far as narcosis goes, you are "reset" instantaneously as you switch the
>gases.  The gas switch triggers a avalanche effect in the oxygen window and
>nulls the narcosis mechanism.  After a period, the narcosis does reappear
if
>you are at a depth where it should occur.

Hi David
I'm not sure I buy that on the start of a dive, because of personal
experience. I have all but stopped using travel gas for anything other than
the very deep dives. I will start my dives with a mix down to 12% 02, I
just do not breath it on the surface. The first time I stopped using travel
gas I was much more at ease on the bottom from the start and the dives less
stressful no odd feelings at the start of a dive, no gas switch or hoses to
re park and less chance of a fuck up. I do not believe the body "resets"
instantaneously. The minutes you save on deco using a travel gas are lost
ON the DIVE because you used it. I will do the 10 or so extra minutes on
deco and have that 2 minutes of a clear,stress free mind on the dive which
is short enough already and I want the most out of it.


>This is a handy thing and will allow a small period of clear headedness if
>used properly.  I don't know the travel mix and can't comment on the effect
>on the diver for more than the short period of the gas switch.  Depending
on
>the workload, hypercapia may be a more suitable explanation because of the
>increase in gas density.

Hypercapnia, is more likely to happen just after or during a workload and
the case I speak of was already after some time had past during deco on
heliox 16 starting at a deep depth and the switch was made at 130ft to
nitrox 32, I think those are the mixes, lurkers on this list will correct
me I'm sure. I do not know exactly how long it was after the switch that he
almost passed out.


>The oxygen window "reset" for narcosis (incipient anesthesia) is known dive
>physiology trait with myself as one of the authors of the article.

I write no articles, just do the dives and tell you what happens to me.

JT




>-----Original Message-----
>From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:14 PM
>To: Capt JT; Brian&Kari Hunter
>Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
>Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
>
>
>
>By the way, "travel" gases must be used carefully, and only where they fit:
>it takes about two minutes for the effect of the last gas to wear off, so
if
>you are dropping, you are still "on" that mix well after you do not want to
>be.
>
>JT is right on the money with this bailout thing.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:36 AM
>To: Brian&Kari Hunter
>Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
>Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
>
>
>Hi Brian
>Let me explain why it is good NOT not to do this and why oldtimers think it
>is Ok to do this.
>
>First oldtimers use pony bottles as a bailout system with air mostly, with
>the introduction of deep dives using trimix they believed that it was OK to
>use the pony as a travel gas and for bailout. The whole pony bottle rig
>takes years to master(if you ever really do) and is a sure sign you are
>behind in the diving scene.
>
>Ken Clayton, who uses the rig in the worst possible way, uses the pony as a
>travel gas with air to around 200ft and deco or bailout gas. He also says
>that you must do deep air to do these deep dives, to prepare for narcosis
>on these deep dives. This is all untrue. I do not do deep air and dive just
>as deep as he has with an EAD that is not = to deep air.
>
>To dive with an high HE content and switch to a high narcotic mix will
>knock your dick in the dirt. You will not be able to solve any problem and
>have just created one.
>
>Example, the first dive to the wreck "Ostfrisland" depth 380ft was done
>with a heliox mix, there is no nitrogen in that mix, but the plan was to
>switch to a nitrox mix for deco which has a high nitrogen content. What
>happen to one of the divers was he nearly pass out from narcosis just after
>the switch. All the first divers to that wreck were deep air divers and one
>out of three had a problem of "Not handling it", I don't like those odds.
>
>JT
>
>
>
>
>    At 05:55 AM 5/29/01 -0400, Trey wrote:
>
> >  Brian, first , stay away from anyone this stupid, and put his name on
>here
> >for all to see and avoid. Second, where does the air come from? Air is
not
>a
> >natural hazard one comes across in diving. Only an idiot dives air.
> >
> >  There is no "handling" being fucked up on air. This is like thinking
that
> >if you put a hand over one eye, it is ok to drive drunk.
> >
> >  Really, in all seriousness, please give us the name of the piece of
shit
> >who told you this. It is hard to believe that anyone is still this stupid
> >out there.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Brian&Kari Hunter [mailto:sasha@ka*.ne*]
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:35 AM
> >To: Trey
> >Subject: Re: Trimix Computers
> >
> >
> >Trey,
> >Should a person know how to deal with narcosis so if they have to switch
> >from he to a more narcotic for emergency reasons they know how to handel
>it?
> >The instructor i'm thinking of taking trimix with says this is true after
I
> >told him I wanted trimix to stay away from deep air.
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
> >To: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:14 AM
> >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Scott ,the legacy of Gilliam and Mount lies in the  holding of deep
air
> > > diving records ( Tom was one of the "pioneers" there ) and the rest of
> >their
> > > "accomplishments" are not material for this list. Let's say they did
not
> > > know any better and  so what. The thing that bothers Cobb and the rest
>of
> >us
> > > is the ongoing inability and unwillingness to move onward and upward
>with
> > > the learning curve.
> > >
> > > Using their "position" of "respect" to misdirect is not now a worthy
> > > endeavor. Failing to learn is not worthy of respect. I could go on,
but
>in
> > > truth some of these guys need a good kick in the balls, and maybe
their
> > > hearts and minds will follow.
> > >
> > > I do not need respect or protection: I can argue my case successfully
>and
> > > they can not, because they have no case - ever. I am sick of hearing
>about
> > > the latest gimmick that Tom thinks is so clever that he just started
>using
> > > yesterday but is perfectly willing to recommend it to anyone, and as
Jim
> > > Cobb very accurately said, Tom has a long history of this going back
to
> > > square lights and so forth.
> > >
> > > If there is anything that I tell anyone that turns out to be bs, then
> > > somebody come on hear and point it out - won't happen, and if I do
> >something
> > > which later proves to be superceded by a better way, I am the first to
>say
> > > so.
> > >
> > > The cumulative track record of IANTD and TDI is not something that
> >commands
> > > any respect at all, in fact, it should require jail time in my
opinion,
> >and
> > > if you want a cross section of real nonsense, notice the misinformed
> >baloney
> > > that comes out of some of these "instructors" when they post to this
>list.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [mailto:ScottBonis@ao*.co*]
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:22 PM
> > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > Subject: Re: Trimix Computers
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Jim,
> > >
> > > You may recall that you and I have butted heads a number of times in
the
> > > past, as well as agreeing on various subjects also.  But I see another
> >head
> > > butting coming on.
> > >
> > > I have on numerous occasions chastised posters on the net for saying
> > > derogatory things about Trey.  Not ever for arguing about his opinions
>or
> > > advice (which are usually pretty sound), but for showing a lack of
>respect
> > > for his accomplishments and dedication to the sport of diving.  There
> >comes
> > > a
> > > point that even if I disagree with what is being said, I must respect
>the
> > > speaker if he has earned a certain position in the community.  A
>freshman
> > > doesn't challenge a full professor.  He or she may question, but never
> > > accuse
> > > or direct.  After the freshman has graduated and contributed to the
> > > community, then he or she may argue.
> > >
> > > Now I must request that you display a greater respect for several of
the
> > > people in the dive community who don't happen to be associated with
the
> >WKPP
> > > or GUE.  Tom Mount, whether or not you agree with his dive techniques,
>is
> > > one
> > > of the clear leaders and outstanding figures in the technical diving
> > > community.  He at IANTD, along with Ed Betts at ANDI, Bret Gilliam at
>TDI,
> > > et. al. for example, are, whether or not you choose to accept it,
among
> >the
> > > true pioneers in technical diving.  These people and others like them,
>are
> > > our teachers and have devoted major portions of their lives to
advancing
> > > diving techniques and making the sport safer for all of us.
> > >
> > > Perhaps you now feel that some of the information being presented by
>these
> > > organizations has been superseded by new data that points in a new
> > > direction.
> > >  This may be so.  But it does not give you the right or even simply
> > > permission, to forget that these people and organizations have
>persevered
> > > and
> > > should have earned your respect.
> > >
> > > Trey, by virtue of his unique position as a nonprofessional whose
> > > accomplishments, experience and contributions to the body of technical
> > > diving
> > > knowledge have earned him the respect of divers worldwide, happens to
>have
> >a
> > > confrontational communication style.  Because of his position I, and
>most
> > > others who wish to learn, overlook this as a personal negative.  It is
>his
> > > way and we accept him for what he is and what he has to offer.  And we
>are
> > > appreciative for his time and efforts.
> > >
> > > But make no mistake that you have certainly not earned a similar
>position.
> > > In my opinion, you have no business whatever telling Tom Mount or the
> > > others,
> > > what they SHOULD be doing.  They are the teachers and you are the
>student.
> > > They tell you.  You listen quietly, ask for more information, choose
>what
> >is
> > > right for you and make your own decisions.  But you do not pretend to
be
> >on
> > > the level of your teachers and direct them.  That is pure ego.
> > >
> > > Let's not forget that we live in an ordered society where true respect
>is
> > > earned over many years of accomplishment and service, not simply by
who
> >can
> > > yell the loudest or type the most curse words into his or her
computer.
>I
> > > consider myself really fortunate to have had the opportunity to learn
>from
> > > individuals of this caliber.
> > >
> > > Jim, I think that you ought to consider this carefully and perhaps
>modify
> > > your approach when communicating with these folks.  And I need to say
>here
> > > that although this message is addressed to you Jim, I am actually also
> > > speaking to a number of the other posters on this list.
> > >
> > > But then OTOH, this is simply one diver's opinion.
> > >
> > > Take care and dive safe,       Scott
> > >
> > > Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the
restraints
> >and
> > > scramble up out of the pit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 5/23/01 9:12:32 PM, cobber@ci*.co* writes:
> > > << Tom-
> > > Maybe not but there are plenty of diveshops out there who would
> > > love to sell some of these high margin pieces of shit and saying what
>you
> > > said below is about as close to a promotion as you can get. Did you
> >purchase
> > > yours or was it a promo?
> > > <snip>
> > > Tom, as I recall you used to stuff the long hose, use bungee wings,
use
> > > steel stages, dive deep air, etc. Don't make this mistake too. >>
> > > --
> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > >
> >
> >--
> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>
>"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
>water"
>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
>   Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
>Email     captjt@mi*.co*
>
>
>--
>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>
>--
>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>
>--
>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.

"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
  Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email     captjt@mi*.co*



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