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I agree with you, planning the dive is half the fun. I personally don't use= a computer but a BT with the Buehlmann ZH-L12 air tables (just add deep st= ops) for anything up to 54 meters (HELITROX 21/30). The decompression is li= mited to the 30 min range on these tables, which is reasonable for OFF SHOR= E MULTI-DAY diving. The 57 meters max tabled depth, I use for contingency o= nly. In theory you can do 100% O2 at 6 meters for the 3 and 6 meter stops i= n the profile but you should do the 3 meters stop at 3 meters if you loose = the 02 and are diving with HELITROX.=20 Deeper/longer dives require more consideration and some good software in my= opinion not a wrist mount computer.=20 -----Original Message----- From: "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*> To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, "Tech Diver"<techdiver@aquanaut.com> Cc: FLTechDiver@mikey.net Date: Sat May 26 06:14:51 PDT 2001 Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >Note that I said modify your gradient factor not "blow off 5 mins of your >deco". > >As I see it from this list alone, OMS should be getting 21 orders for thei= r >$1900 computer, that comes to about $40,000. Figure a profit of probably >$1300 per, so that's $27,000 profit from this list alone. I'll tell you >what, I see the logic of trimix computers now, what an idiot I am. > >On another note, I see that Cockring won a Navy contract for supplying Nav= y >divers UDT, SEALs etc. with dive computers. Hoooobooy. > >You guy's go ahead and get your trimix computers, I'll stick with my table= s. >Just make sure it has a gauge mode. > > Jim > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > >> From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*> >> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 05:19:12 -0700 (PDT) >> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>, Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*= ..net>, >> David Shimell <David.Shimell@ta*.co*>, Ray Blanchard <rkbl@uf*.ed*>, = Tech >> Diver <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >> Cc: Alan Crew <alancrew@ya*.co*>, FLTechDiver@mikey.net, Dell Motes >> <dell@di*.co*> >> Subject: Re: Re: Trimix Computers >>=20 >> As for feeling better after the dives it has more to do with proper prof= ile >> gas etc. then blowing off 5 mins of a 40 min deco. If you=92re doing all= this >> with in the Buehlmann ceiling you=92re going to be reasonably safe in my >> opinion. I don=92t believe you can tweak the consumer version of these p= rograms >> to go beyond the actual Buehlmann M-value. >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*> >> To: "Tom Mount"<TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*.ne*>, "David >> Shimell"<David.Shimell@ta*.co*>, "Ray Blanchard"<rkbl@uf*.ed*>, "Tech >> Diver"<techdiver@aquanaut.com> >> Cc: "Alan Crew"<alancrew@ya*.co*>, FLTechDiver@mikey.net, "Dell >> Motes"<dell@di*.co*> >> Date: Fri May 25 11:55:53 PDT 2001 >> Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >>=20 >>> Tom, look if you are asking if I sit on the hang line and say "hey, won= der I >>> I'd get bent if I surface now". Or "hey, I didn't get bent on that last >>> dive, think I'll crank the gradient all the way to the other side and s= ee if >>> I get bent then". >>>=20 >>> No, that's not what I do. You are being a bit churlish here, aren't you= ? You >>> start with the default of the tables program you are using and see how = you >>> feel. Feeling a bit tired after the dive? Not quite right? Then modify = the >>> gradient, start the stops a little deeper, stay on the 02 a little long= er. >>>=20 >>> You do the dive and feel fine? Great. Crank back on the gradient a litt= le >>> and see what the effect is on your deco time and do the dive. Then see = how >>> you feel. For most people you will be doing this continuously during yo= ur >>> diving career. >>>=20 >>> I simply cannot believe I am discussing truly basic stuff like this wit= h Tom >>> Mount, I really cannot. >>>=20 >>> I guess from your school, Tom, you go get your Alladin Pro or your Navy >>> tables, jump in the water, slavishly adhere to it's ridiculous deco >>> schedule, get out of the water, feel like shit and then declare it a >>> successful dive. Then do it again. What do you call this technique? >>>=20 >>> Jim >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ >>>=20 >>>> From: "Tom Mount" <TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*.ne*> >>>> Reply-To: "Tom Mount" <TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*.ne*> >>>> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:17:24 -0400 >>>> To: "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*>, "David Shimell" >>>> <David.Shimell@ta*.co*>, "Ray Blanchard" <rkbl@uf*.ed*>, "Tech Dive= r" >>>> <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>> Cc: "Alan Crew" <alancrew@ya*.co*>, <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>, "Dell M= otes" >>>> <dell@di*.co*> >>>> Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >>>>=20 >>>> To Jim Cobb >>>> Jim, You stated: " Shoot, half the fun of deco diving is doing the pre= -dive >>>> calculations.It up's the ante in that you are experimenting with your = own >>>> body finding >>>> out what the best profile is for you. When you start getting indicatio= ns of >>>> your limitations, i.e. joint pain, slobitus, that tired feeling, fried >>>> lungs,etc. you adjust the calculations until you are dialed in. I can'= t >>>> imagine not having the ability to fine-tune your profile. " >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> So I guess then based on your statement , that there must be two types= or >>>> definitions of DIR >>>>=20 >>>> 1. Doing It Right ( the one most people are familiar with) >>>>=20 >>>> 2. or as someone else has stated instead Doing It Ridiculsly >>>>=20 >>>> Sounds like you follow the second one >>>>=20 >>>> So which DIR do you really support >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Now to answer your last email >>>>=20 >>>> First: Do you guys ever read. I did not mention anything about my dive= s >>>>=20 >>>> Second: I will tell you I do not go out and bend myself on purpose jus= t to >>>> see what my threshold is on a given day, like you advocate >>>>=20 >>>> Third: You stated you deliberately bend yourself then back off. Now th= at >>>> cannot be considered a logical or intelligent action. >>>>=20 >>>> Fourth: I would imagine many if not most divers who do a lot of deco d= ives >>>> have had niggles >>>>=20 >>>> Fifth: I hope most of these people do not deliberately bend themselves >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*> >>>> To: "Tom Mount" <TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*.ne*>; "David Shimell" >>>> <David.Shimell@ta*.co*>; "Ray Blanchard" <rkbl@uf*.ed*>; "Tech Dive= r" >>>> <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>> Cc: "Alan Crew" <alancrew@ya*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net> >>>> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 1:08 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> So what you're telling me, Tom, that in all of your 10,000 dives you'= ve >>>>> never had any indications of sub-clinical DCS at all? Every single on= e of >>>>> your decompression dives you've done, especially those deep air speci= als, >>>>> have been perfect dives? What a load of crap. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Z, here's more survey material for you. A show of hands of people who >>>>> actually do staged deco dives who have never had niggle one, a perfec= t >>>> dive >>>>> every time. >>>>>=20 >>>>> George you weren't kidding, were you? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Jim >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ >>>>>=20 >>>>>> From: "Tom Mount" <TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*.ne*> >>>>>> Reply-To: "Tom Mount" <TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*.ne*> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:49:33 -0400 >>>>>> To: "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*>, "David Shimell" >>>>>> <David.Shimell@ta*.co*>, "Ray Blanchard" <rkbl@uf*.ed*>, "Tech Di= ver" >>>>>> <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>>>> Cc: "Alan Crew" <alancrew@ya*.co*>, <FLTechDiver@mikey.net> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So you deliberately go to the point of getting mild DCS and then bac= k >>>> off . >>>>>> That is really intelligent Cobb >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*> >>>>>> To: "David Shimell" <David.Shimell@ta*.co*>; "Ray Blanchard" >>>>>> <rkbl@uf*.ed*>; "Tom Mount" <TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*.ne*>; "Tech Dive= r" >>>>>> <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>>>> Cc: "Alan Crew" <alancrew@ya*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 8:22 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Shoot, half the fun of deco diving is doing the pre-dive calculatio= ns. >>>> It >>>>>>> up's the ante in that you are experimenting with your own body find= ing >>>> out >>>>>>> what the best profile is for you. When you start getting indication= s of >>>>>> your >>>>>>> limitations, i.e. joint pain, slobitus, that tired feeling, fried >>>> lungs, >>>>>>> etc. you adjust the calculations until you are dialed in. I can't >>>> imagine >>>>>>> not having the ability to fine-tune your profile. I dare say that i= f >>>> you >>>>>> do >>>>>>> it enough you know what your deco is intuitively in certain standar= d >>>>>>> profiles. Why anybody would want to cripple themselves with a wrist >>>> deco >>>>>>> computer is beyond me. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> From: David Shimell <David.Shimell@ta*.co*> >>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:50:49 +0100 >>>>>>>> To: "'Jim Cobb'" <cobber@ci*.co*>, Ray Blanchard >>>> <rkbl@uf*.ed*>, >>>>>> Tom >>>>>>>> Mount <TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*.ne*>, Tech Diver >>>> <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>>>>>> Cc: Alan Crew <alancrew@ya*.co*>, >>>>>>>> "FLTechDiver@mikey.net"<FLTechDiver@mikey.net> >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Trimix Computers >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> It is as simple as the desire to have things easy, with little or = no >>>>>>>> intellectual effort expended. Nothing actually wrong with that if= the >>>>>> product >>>>>>>> delivers to goods and the individual is prepared to pay the price. >>>> The >>>>>>>> problem occurs when the product does not deliver the goods - keeps= the >>>>>>>> individual in-water longer than necessary or fails. Suddenly, wha= t >>>>>> would be >>>>>>>> routine dive to BT users may become a stressful CF, or in the most >>>>>> extreme of >>>>>>>> circumstances kill the individual. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> David Shimell >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Jim Cobb [SMTP:cobber@ci*.co*] >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:28 AM >>>>>>>> To: Ray Blanchard; Tom Mount; Tech Diver >>>>>>>> Cc: Alan Crew; FLTechDiver@mikey.net >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> << File: ATT00048.htm >> All I can say is Ray, Why? All the stuff = you >>>>>> relate >>>>>>>> here with the added >>>>>>>> bonus of the "most complicated interface in dive computerdom". Exc= use >>>> me >>>>>> but >>>>>>>> I do believe that there are more important things to be keeping tr= ack >>>> of >>>>>> on >>>>>>>> a trimix dive than trying to figure out the most complicated inter= face >>>>>> ever >>>>>>>> strapped on a wrist. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> What advantage does this $1900 monstrosity offer over a bottom tim= er, >>>>>> tables >>>>>>>> and a solid understanding of deco that only comes from experience? >>>> This >>>>>> is >>>>>>>> pure geek stuff, hoypaloy which adds nothing to your dive but more >>>>>>>> complexity, task loading and failure points. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= - >>>>>>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> From: Ray Blanchard <rkbl@uf*.ed*> >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:36:09 -0400 >>>>>>>> To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@in*.at*.ne*> >>>>>>>> Cc: Alan Crew <alancrew@ya*.co*>, FLTechDiver@mikey.net >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi Alan, Tom & the rest of the list, >>>>>>>> Thanks for the informative posts from folks regarding trimix compu= ters >>>>>> in >>>>>>>> particular the Abyss Explorer and the Phoenix VR3 as well as the >>>> limited >>>>>>>> application of the NiTek3. While not a trimix computer diver, I'v= e >>>> been >>>>>>>> following this area closely for several years and dreaming of owni= ng >>>>>> one. >>>>>>>> This past DEMA show, however, was especially interesting in regard= s to >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> VR3 which is the only trimix computer that I've seen in private >>>>>> individuals' >>>>>>>> hands (see Z's post regarding the Explorer). Prior to the show my >>>>>>>> information was limited to that from OMS, the U.S. distributor of = the >>>>>> VR3, >>>>>>>> and a friend who dove one and found the user interface rather comp= lex. >>>>>>>> While visiting the OMS booth at DEMA, I spoke at length to Kevin G= urr >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> another member of the VR3 development team and discovered that OMS= 's >>>>>>>> literature on this computer fails to do justice to the VR3's featu= res >>>> in >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> big way. Since Tom with his hands-on experience didn't expound on >>>> them, >>>>>>>> here are a few of the highlights that are not on the OMS brochures= : >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -Phoenix has a web presence ( www.vr3.co.uk ) including an electro= nic >>>>>> copy >>>>>>>> of the VR3 user manual >>>>>>>> -PC interface comes with the dive unit >>>>>>>> -user changeable standard batteries >>>>>>>> -never locks out upon deco violations >>>>>>>> -dive simulation mode allows contingency tables to be generated fr= om >>>> the >>>>>>>> dive unit on its own >>>>>>>> -capable of complete gas control/programming even while on the div= e >>>>>>>> -back lighting >>>>>>>> -adjustable conservancy/safety factor >>>>>>>> -reed switches (mentioned) mean no case penetration for buttons. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Overall this unit appears to have tremendous flexibility but that = also >>>>>>>> makes for the most complicated user interface that I've seen on a = dive >>>>>>>> computer. Still, while I'm not a technophile, I think that I coul= d >>>>>> learn to >>>>>>>> use this computer and I definitely would like to get my hands on o= ne. >>>>>> The 2 >>>>>>>> biggest down sides to this unit are that OMS is marketing the OC >>>> trimix >>>>>>>> model with an MSRP of $1900 and second, as Tom mentioned, it's >>>>>> conservative >>>>>>>> because it's based on the ProPlanner algorithm. I know that some o= f my >>>>>>>> trimix diving friends down here in FL find ProPlanner to be a litt= le >>>> too >>>>>>>> conservative for their tastes even when it's set for zero conserva= tion >>>>>> (for >>>>>>>> some reason they want to get out of the water faster ;-) however, >>>> Tom's >>>>>>>> recommendation for a special order may resolve this issue. Of cou= rse >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> biggest point I've encountered for this trimix computer is that it= 's >>>> in >>>>>>>> production and available now. >>>>>>>> Safe diving, >>>>>>>> Ray >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>>>>>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>>>> To contact the list administrator, email >>>>>>> Mike Rodriguez at mikey@mi*.ne* >>>>>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to: >>>>>>> listserv@mi*.ne* >>>>>>> and in the *BODY* of the message type: >>>>>>> unsubscribe FLTechDiver >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>>> To contact the list administrator, email >>>>>> Mike Rodriguez at mikey@mi*.ne* >>>>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to: >>>>>> listserv@mi*.ne* >>>>>> and in the *BODY* of the message type: >>>>>> unsubscribe FLTechDiver >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>> To contact the list administrator, email >>>>> Mike Rodriguez at mikey@mi*.ne* >>>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to: >>>>> listserv@mi*.ne* >>>>> and in the *BODY* of the message type: >>>>> unsubscribe FLTechDiver >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'= .. >>=20 >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________ >> GO.com Mail =20 >> Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > > ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail =20 Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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