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 I never "demanded" proof from Bill Gavin when he told me where and how they
tested things, I merely looked over at him in the water and noted what he
was using - proof enough. Having had access to all kinds of information from
all kinds of sources does not mean they handed me over the papers to go with
it, and I personally think it is good enough that I share it in a form that
does not give up those people and organizations that let me in on it.

Kane just got into an argument with some moron about red cell rigidity under
nitrogen tension, and the guy want me to "prove" that it happens while he in
no way intends to "prove" to me that it does NOT happen, or that his
recommendation for air diving is in fact a "proven" safe thing long term.

Where does it end? This is like the lawyers who do traffic tickets wanting
to check the certification of the radar user or the calibration of his radar
gun.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Alex Vasauskas [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]
  Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 4:49 PM
  To: Trey; DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com
  Subject: Adam wanting a bite of the apple Was Re: Story behind DUI 400
gram Thinsulate Undergarment


  Trey:

  It's not a question of not believing the credible evidence, of arguing
against your experience, or of demanding justification from you.  As I've
said before, I respect your credibility and expertise.  In addition, I have
curiosity and like to understand how things work.  You aren't getting paid
to share what you know here, and I appreciate what you are willing to offer
for as long as you are willing to offer it.  As you say, "Take it or leave
it" -- fair enough.  Just don't be so surprised that people are curious and
want to know what's inside the black box -- I would be surprised if you got
to where you are now without that kind of curiosity.

  Alex
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Trey
    To: Alex Vasauskas ; DIR Quest ; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com
    Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:17 AM
    Subject: RE: Story behind DUI 400 gram Thinsulate Undergarment


    Alex, this stuff is not for the public, so if you do not believe me,
then so be it. Read DUI's tests. Don't believe them, then so be it. I do not
care what you believe. If you dive in my organization, you wear it or you do
not dive. I am not going to argue with any of you for one second. Do
whatever you want. I am not about to tell any of you any of my sources of
anything, so take it or leave it.

    I really love this: it is always me having to PROVE something when none
of you have a rats ass worth of information or "proof" other than
supposition, conjecture, hearsay and bullshit.

    My "teaching" days are rapidly coming to and end. Consider everything I
say as opinion and just ignore it. I dive with about three people and have
another few around me. Those people know I am right, the rest of you really
do not count, and I honestly do not care. Take it or leave it.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Alex Vasauskas [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]
      Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 2:24 PM
      To: Trey; DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com
      Subject: Re: Story behind DUI 400 gram Thinsulate Undergarment


      Trey:

      I certainly am not going to argue against Navy tests + your
experience -- I am going to rely on these.

      I understand the frustration of being disputed by people with less and
incomplete knowledge when you actually know.  But, the disputing seems to be
human nature -- kind of like when teenagers wake up one day wondering how
their parents are even smart enough to get dressed.  Everyone here should be
past this stage and know to listen and ask questions when they don't really
know -- and not to think that they know until they have had the experience
and education.  But, in life it isn't so and I hope that you can keep enough
of the patience and interest in being a teacher to keep answering questions
(and arguments) with more than yes and no.  (Besides, you have it easy.  My
wife is a teacher and she deals with what frustrates you from 120+ 7th
graders every day.  Unlike you, she gets paid, but I don't know how she does
it.).  Anyway, your answers and explanations are valuable to everyone who is
listening.

      Just remember that the explanations are as important than the answers.
I can accept an answer from a reliable source, but I am not satisfied with
leaving it at that.  I also need to know why the answer is what it is.

      Which leads me to ... I am still trying to locate a copy of the report
from the Navy tests.  I was not able to find any link to reports on the NEDU
web site, and I have not yet gotten back any response from NEDU or DUI on
where to get a copy of this report.  Do you know where I can get a copy or
do you have a copy that you can email?

      Alex
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Trey
        To: Alex Vasauskas ; DIR Quest ; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com
        Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 3:49 AM
        Subject: RE: Story behind DUI 400 gram Thinsulate Undergarment


        Notice, as I said, the Navy tests. The guy who did those tests was
my former dive partner, Bill Gavin. However, I will be glad to listen to any
neophytes or morons who disregard that and every other aspect of why the
insulation needs to be what they say here plus provide the buoyancy, after
those morons show me the buoyancy , can do 10 hours in Tally flooded, and
can do 18 hours in Tally with no change in core temperature, and after they
show me their Navy tests, and of course, after they SMD.  I am so sick and
tired of arguing . I am about to go to Landon mode - "yes" or "no". Gavin
used to just ay nothing if anyone argued with him, so they got nothing from
him. I got all his information, because I treated him like he knew what he
was talking about.

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D840564410-14052001> I never "demanded" proof from Bill =
Gavin when he=20
told me where and how they tested things, I merely looked over at him in =
the=20
water and noted what he was using - proof enough. Having had access to =
all kinds=20
of information from all kinds of sources does not mean they handed me =
over the=20
papers to go with it, and I personally think it is good enough that I =
share it=20
in a form that does not give up those people and organizations that let =
me in on=20
it. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D840564410-14052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D840564410-14052001>Kane=20
just got into an argument with some moron about red cell rigidity under =
nitrogen=20
tension, and the guy want me to "prove" that it happens while he in no =
way=20
intends to "prove" to me that it does NOT happen, or that his =
recommendation for=20
air diving is in fact a "proven" safe thing long =
term.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D840564410-14052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D840564410-14052001>Where=20
does it end? This is like the lawyers who do traffic tickets wanting to =
check=20
the certification of the radar user or the calibration of his radar gun. =

</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Alex Vasauskas=20
  [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 11, 2001 4:49=20
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> Trey; DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut. =
Com<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
  Adam wanting a bite of the apple Was Re: Story behind DUI 400 gram =
Thinsulate=20
  Undergarment<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Trey:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>It's not a question of not believing the credible =
evidence,=20
  of arguing against your experience, or of demanding justification =
from=20
  you.  As I've said before, I respect your =
credibility and=20
  expertise.  In addition, I have curiosity and like to =
understand how=20
  things work.  You aren't getting paid to share what you know =
here, and I=20
  appreciate what you are willing to offer for as long as you are =
willing to=20
  offer it.  As you say, "Take it or leave it" -- fair =
enough.  Just=20
  don't be so surprised that people are curious and want to =
know=20
  what's inside the black box -- I would be surprised if you got to =
where you=20
  are now without that kind of curiosity.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Alex</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A href=3D"mailto:trey@ne*.co*" title=3Dtrey@ne*.co*>Trey</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*"=20
    title=3Dsurlyc@al*.ne*>Alex Vasauskas</A> ; <A =
href=3D"mailto:quest@gu*.co*"=20
    title=3Dquest@gu*.co*>DIR Quest</A> ; <A =
href=3D"mailto:Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com"=20
    title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 11, 2001 =
11:17=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Story behind
DUI =
400 gram=20
    Thinsulate Undergarment</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
    class=3D040051319-11052001>Alex, this stuff is not for the public, =
so if you=20
    do not believe me,  then so be it. Read DUI's tests. Don't =
believe=20
    them, then so be it. I do not care what you believe. If you dive in =
my=20
    organization, you wear it or you do not dive. I am not going to =
argue with=20
    any of you for one second. Do whatever you want. I am not about to =
tell any=20
    of you any of my sources of anything, so take it or leave=20
    it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
    class=3D040051319-11052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D040051319-11052001>I=20
    really love this: it is always me having to PROVE something when =
none of you=20
    have a rats ass worth of information or "proof" other than =
supposition,=20
    conjecture, hearsay and bullshit.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
    class=3D040051319-11052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D040051319-11052001>My=20
    "teaching" days are rapidly coming to and end. Consider everything I =
say as=20
    opinion and just ignore it. I dive with about three people and have =
another=20
    few around me. Those people know I am right, the rest of you really =
do not=20
    count, and I honestly do not care. Take it or leave =
it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
    class=3D040051319-11052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D040051319-11052001>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
      size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Alex
Vasauskas =

      [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 11, 2001 =
2:24=20
      PM<BR><B>To:</B> Trey; DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut.=20
      Com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Story behind DUI 400 gram
Thinsulate=20
      Undergarment<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Trey:</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I certainly am not going to argue against Navy =
tests +=20
      your experience -- I am going to rely on these.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I understand the frustration of being disputed =
by people=20
      with less and incomplete knowledge when you actually know.  =
But, the=20
      disputing seems to be human nature -- kind of like when =
teenagers=20
      wake up one day wondering how their parents are even smart enough =
to get=20
      dressed.  Everyone here should be past this stage and know to =
listen=20
      and ask questions when they don't really know -- and not to think =
that=20
      they know until they have had the experience and education.  =
But, in=20
      life it isn't so and I hope that you can keep enough of the =
patience=20
      and interest in being a teacher to keep answering questions (and=20
      arguments) with more than yes and no.  (Besides, you =
have it=20
      easy.  My wife is a teacher and she deals with what =

      frustrates you from 120+ 7th graders every=20
      day.  Unlike you, she gets paid, but I don't know how =
she does=20
      it.).  Anyway, your answers and =
explanations are=20
      valuable to everyone who is listening.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Just remember that the explanations are as =
important=20
      than the answers.  I can accept an answer from a=20
      reliable source, but I am not satisfied with leaving it at=20
      that.  I also need to know why the answer is what it=20
      is.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Which leads me to ... I am still trying to =
locate a copy=20
      of the report from the Navy tests.  I was not able to find =
any link=20
      to reports on the NEDU web site, and I have not yet gotten back =
any=20
      response from NEDU or DUI on where to get a copy of this =
report.  Do=20
      you know where I can get a copy or do you have a copy that you can =

      email?</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Alex</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A href=3D"mailto:trey@ne*.co*" =
title=3Dtrey@ne*.co*>Trey</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        href=3D"mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*" title=3Dsurlyc@al*.ne*>Alex =

        Vasauskas</A> ; <A href=3D"mailto:quest@gu*.co*" =
title=3Dquest@gu*.co*>DIR=20
        Quest</A> ; <A href=3D"mailto:Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com"=20
        title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com</A> =
</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 11, =
2001 3:49=20
        AM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Story
behind =
DUI 400=20
        gram Thinsulate Undergarment</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT
size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
        size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
        class=3D500304211-11052001>Notice, as I said, the Navy tests. =
The guy who=20
        did those tests was my former dive partner, Bill Gavin. However, =
I will=20
        be glad to listen to any neophytes or morons who disregard that =
and=20
        every other aspect of why the insulation needs to be what they =
say here=20
        plus provide the buoyancy, after those morons show me the =
buoyancy , can=20
        do 10 hours in Tally flooded, and can do 18 hours in Tally with =
no=20
        change in core temperature, and after they show me their Navy =
tests, and=20
        of course, after they SMD.  I am so sick and tired of =
arguing . I=20
        am about to go to Landon mode - "yes" or "no". Gavin used to =
just ay=20
        nothing if anyone argued with him, so they got nothing from him. =
I got=20
        all his information, because I treated him like he knew what he =
was=20
        talking about.=20
    =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></FONT
></DIV></BLOCK=
QUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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