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Notice, as I said, the Navy tests. The guy who did those tests was my former
dive partner, Bill Gavin. However, I will be glad to listen to any neophytes
or morons who disregard that and every other aspect of why the insulation
needs to be what they say here plus provide the buoyancy, after those morons
show me the buoyancy , can do 10 hours in Tally flooded, and can do 18 hours
in Tally with no change in core temperature, and after they show me their
Navy tests, and of course, after they SMD.  I am so sick and tired of
arguing . I am about to go to Landon mode - "yes" or "no". Gavin used to
just ay nothing if anyone argued with him, so they got nothing from him. I
got all his information, because I treated him like he knew what he was
talking about.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Alex Vasauskas [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]
  Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 5:00 AM
  To: DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com
  Subject: Story behind DUI 400 gram Thinsulate Undergarment


  DUI customer service finally hooked me up with their R&D department to
answer my questions regarding the DUI C-4 that Trey insists on.  I have
learned not to doubt Trey's experience -- every time I try something he
says, it turns out he's right.  Nonetheless, there are several kinds of
Thinsulate (see
http://www.3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html), and I wanted
the story behind the material DUI uses, an explanation about why their
Thinsulate may be different than the Thinsulate other manufacturers use, and
a comparison to other materials used by undergarment manufacturers.  Here's
the story from Bob Stinton at DUI's R&D:

  The Thinsulate that is used in DUI divewear is Type B and the B stands for
boot so it is in the Footwear group

  Thinsulate Insulation,
  Thinsulate Flex Insulation
  Thinsulate Lite Loft Insulation
  Thinsulate Ultra Extreme Insulation
  Thinsulate Ultra Active Insulation
   Thinsulate Insulation for Footwear

  Little history: In the beginning there was only type M and it was not
insulation it was used for cleaning up oil spills. Type M which later became
type B is 100% polypropyline micro fibers.  As such is produce a dense and
compression resistant batting which is why it is use in boots.  However it
dose not make good ski jackets because is dose not have the loft like down
jackets. All the other variants of Thinsulate are blended with different
qualities of polyester fibers which act as springs and make it more lofty.
However this loft is highly compressible, the pressure gradient across a dry
suit when the diver is vertical in the water is about 3 psi and when the
diver is in the prone  it is about 1 psi.  Type M and later B batting only
loses about 40-60 percent of it insulation when loaded at these pressure and
the other types of high loft battings loss 85-95 percent of their insulation
under the same loading.  Because of this resistance to pressure loading type
B is use in footwear.

  The second property that made the M and later B batting the Navy's choice,
for critical diving applications, was that dense nature of the batting.  The
dens packing of the fibers which makes it compression resistant also helps
it maintain more of its insulation when immersed, this is because the fibers
are so close together there is not much space for water to ingress.

  DUI looks at each new variant of 3Ms Thinsulate when it comes out for
suability for divewear, to date none of these match up with thinsulate.  The
only material know to come close is a material called Flectalon which come
from the UK, however Flectalon dose not have wide distributed and it is more
expensive.  (Red: NEDU Report: Insulation, Compressibility and Absorbency of
Dry Suit Undergarments.)

  Hope this helps

  Bob

  Engineering


  Alex

  DUI uses Thinsulate garments with 200 and 400 gm/m2 Type B material.

  Regarding the TR1000 garments. The temperature regulating material
incorporates is micro capsules of wax attached to the fabric.  The concept
is this wax melts at low temperatures 80-90F. The concept is that when you
are working hard your skin temperatures warms up and the wax is melted and
in the process some heat is stored. Then when you skin temperature drop the
heat in the wax is avalable to you.  The problem is the amount of heat that
you can store in the wax is minimal, depending on the environment it may
only be minutes. Its like a car battery, the dome light will run for days
without running down the battery, however you can only crank the starter for
minutes.  In theory material is most suited for things like skiing, you ski
down the mountain and store a little heat which is then avalable during the
next lift ride up the mountain. The key is this thermal storage layer must
be next to the skin and anything between the skin and it is diminishing its
effectiveness, it like using 50 ft jumper cables.

  This temperature regulating material has been tested in diving application
about four years ago in diving suits by the Navy and since then no further
testing has been done, the result where not very positive. Also the wax heat
storage materials have been around since the 60's and where tested then for
diving.

  I know the Army is looking at it in cold weather boots, for situation
where the solder is going though cycles of work and resting like 15 min on
15 min off. Some of the boots in the test with this temperature regulating
material seam to work better then others.  It is just preliminary testing
and the results are only minutes between the ones that work and don't work.

  And yes the material was developed by NASA and the Air Force, however the
application was for dealing with temperature spikes in in electronic cooling
system.

  If you want to see how it may work for your application you could purchase
a pair of EC2� Body Sensors  from Terramar at
http://www.terramarsports.com/sensors.html. They make insulate underwave
(long johns) for the outdoor market. The EC2� Body Sensors underwear
contains Outlast temperature regulating fabric.

  And yes you could wear this garment under the DUI Thinsulate Divewear, as
you can any thing that will fit under the divewear as long as it fits under
the divewear with out binding or restricting your movement and breathing.
Wearing thing under or over the Thinsulate garment will only add to you
total insulation, it is like the outdoors it's layering.

  As far as the 100 gm/m2 insulation used in the TR1000 divewear I would
assume that is a high loft type C variant Thinsulate which containing
polyester fibers. The reason most people us this it is because it is less
expensive than the type B.  Also you get the marketing advantage that you
can put the Thinsulate name on you product and most customers would not know
the difference, its marketing what can I say.

  Best regards

  Bob



 
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><>
  Diving Unlimited International, Inc.

  DUI Divers are a Breed Apart - Join the Pack!
  DOGS - DUI Owners Group DOGs at www.DUI-Online
 
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><>


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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D500304211-11052001>Notice, as I said, the Navy tests. The guy =
who did=20
those tests was my former dive partner, Bill Gavin. However, I will be =
glad to=20
listen to any neophytes or morons who disregard that and every other =
aspect of=20
why the insulation needs to be what they say here plus provide the =
buoyancy,=20
after those morons show me the buoyancy , can do 10 hours in Tally =
flooded, and=20
can do 18 hours in Tally with no change in core temperature, and after =
they show=20
me their Navy tests, and of course, after they SMD.  I am so sick =
and tired=20
of arguing . I am about to go to Landon mode - "yes" or "no". Gavin used =
to just=20
ay nothing if anyone argued with him, so they got nothing from him. I =
got all=20
his information, because I treated him like he knew what he was talking =
about.=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Alex Vasauskas=20
  [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 11, 2001 5:00=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut.
Com<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Story=20
  behind DUI 400 gram Thinsulate Undergarment<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>DUI customer service finally hooked me up with =
their R&D=20
  department to answer my questions regarding the DUI C-4 that =
Trey insists=20
  on.  I have learned not to doubt Trey's experience -- every time =
I try=20
  something he says, it turns out he's right.  Nonetheless, there =
are=20
  several kinds of Thinsulate (see <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html">ht=
tp://www.3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html</A>),=20
  and I wanted the story behind the material DUI uses, an =
explanation=20
  about why their Thinsulate may be different than the Thinsulate other=20
  manufacturers use, and a comparison to other materials used by =
undergarment=20
  manufacturers.  Here's the story from Bob Stinton at DUI's=20
  R&D:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV>The Thinsulate that is used in DUI divewear is Type B and the B =
stands=20
  for boot so it is in the Footwear group<BR><BR>Thinsulate=20
  Insulation,<BR>Thinsulate Flex Insulation<BR>Thinsulate Lite Loft=20
  Insulation<BR>Thinsulate Ultra Extreme Insulation<BR>Thinsulate Ultra =
Active=20
  Insulation<BR> Thinsulate Insulation for Footwear<BR><BR>Little
=
history:=20
  In the beginning there was only type M and it was not insulation it =
was used=20
  for cleaning up oil spills. Type M which later became type B is 100%=20
  polypropyline micro fibers.  As such is produce a dense and =
compression=20
  resistant batting which is why it is use in boots.  However it =
dose not=20
  make good ski jackets because is dose not have the loft like down =
jackets. All=20
  the other variants of Thinsulate are blended with different qualities =
of=20
  polyester fibers which act as springs and make it more lofty. However =
this=20
  loft is highly compressible, the pressure gradient across a dry suit =
when the=20
  diver is vertical in the water is about 3 psi and when the diver is in =
the=20
  prone  it is about 1 psi.  Type M and later B batting only =
loses=20
  about 40-60 percent of it insulation when loaded at these pressure and =
the=20
  other types of high loft battings loss 85-95 percent of their =
insulation under=20
  the same loading.  Because of this resistance to pressure loading =
type B=20
  is use in footwear.<BR><BR>The second property that made the M and =
later B=20
  batting the Navy's choice, for critical diving applications, was that =
dense=20
  nature of the batting.  The dens packing of the fibers which =
makes it=20
  compression resistant also helps it maintain more of its insulation =
when=20
  immersed, this is because the fibers are so close together there is =
not much=20
  space for water to ingress.<BR><BR>DUI looks at each new variant of =
3Ms=20
  Thinsulate when it comes out for suability for divewear, to date none =
of these=20
  match up with thinsulate.  The only material know to come close =
is a=20
  material called Flectalon which come from the UK, however Flectalon =
dose not=20
  have wide distributed and it is more expensive.  (Red: NEDU =
Report:=20
  Insulation, Compressibility and Absorbency of Dry Suit=20
  Undergarments.)<BR><BR>Hope this=20
 
helps<BR><BR>Bob<BR><BR>Engineering<BR><BR><BR>Alex<BR>&
lt;BR>DUI uses =
Thinsulate=20
  garments with 200 and 400 gm/m2 Type B material.<BR><BR>Regarding the =
TR1000=20
  garments. The temperature regulating material incorporates is micro =
capsules=20
  of wax attached to the fabric.  The concept is this wax melts at =
low=20
  temperatures 80-90F. The concept is that when you are working hard =
your skin=20
  temperatures warms up and the wax is melted and in the process some =
heat is=20
  stored. Then when you skin temperature drop the heat in the wax is =
avalable to=20
  you.  The problem is the amount of heat that you can store in the =
wax is=20
  minimal, depending on the environment it may only be minutes. Its like =
a car=20
  battery, the dome light will run for days without running down the =
battery,=20
  however you can only crank the starter for minutes.  In theory =
material=20
  is most suited for things like skiing, you ski down the mountain and =
store a=20
  little heat which is then avalable during the next lift ride up the =
mountain.=20
  The key is this thermal storage layer must be next to the skin and =
anything=20
  between the skin and it is diminishing its effectiveness, it like =
using 50 ft=20
  jumper cables.<BR><BR>This temperature regulating material has been =
tested in=20
  diving application about four years ago in diving suits by the Navy =
and since=20
  then no further testing has been done, the result where not very =
positive.=20
  Also the wax heat storage materials have been around since the 60's =
and where=20
  tested then for diving.<BR><BR>I know the Army is looking at it in =
cold=20
  weather boots, for situation where the solder is going though cycles =
of work=20
  and resting like 15 min on 15 min off. Some of the boots in the test =
with this=20
  temperature regulating material seam to work better then others.  =
It is=20
  just preliminary testing and the results are only minutes between the =
ones=20
  that work and don't work.<BR><BR>And yes the material was developed by =
NASA=20
  and the Air Force, however the application was for dealing with =
temperature=20
  spikes in in electronic cooling system.<BR><BR>If you want to see how =
it may=20
  work for your application you could purchase a pair of EC2=D4 Body =
Sensors =20
  from Terramar at <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.terramarsports.com/sensors.html">http://www.terramarsp=
orts.com/sensors.html</A>.=20
  They make insulate underwave (long johns) for the outdoor market. The =
EC2=D4=20
  Body Sensors underwear contains Outlast temperature regulating=20
  fabric.<BR><BR>And yes you could wear this garment under the DUI =
Thinsulate=20
  Divewear, as you can any thing that will fit under the divewear as =
long as it=20
  fits under the divewear with out binding or restricting your movement =
and=20
  breathing. Wearing thing under or over the Thinsulate garment will =
only add to=20
  you total insulation, it is like the outdoors it's layering.<BR><BR>As =
far as=20
  the 100 gm/m2 insulation used in the TR1000 divewear I would assume =
that is a=20
  high loft type C variant Thinsulate which containing polyester fibers. =
The=20
  reason most people us this it is because it is less expensive than the =
type=20
  B.  Also you get the marketing advantage that you can put the =
Thinsulate=20
  name on you product and most customers would not know the difference, =
its=20
  marketing what can I say.<BR><BR>Best=20
  =
regards<BR><BR>Bob<BR><BR><BR><BR><><><><
><>=
;<><><><><><><><><>=
<><><><><><><><BR>Diving=20
  Unlimited International, Inc.<BR><BR>DUI Divers are a Breed Apart - =
Join the=20
  Pack!<BR>DOGS - DUI Owners Group DOGs at <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.DUI-Online">www.DUI-Online</A><BR><><><=
><><><><><><><><><&=
gt;<><><><><><><><><&g=
t;<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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