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Dave, now that you have put out this piece of complete bullshit and in =
your little mind successfully obfuscated the realities that actually go =
into the thinking of manifold operation underwater in diving ( and there =
is no way you do jack shit in diving ), why don't you go ahead an =
entertain us all by telling us what kind of blithering idiot turns the =
isolator knob upside down? Since you are such a big "expert" on valves, =
maybe you can tell us all what this accomplishes, besides acting as a =
visible "tip of the iceberg" warning to anyone who sees you that you are =
a complete stroke who has no clue and is likely to act in a bad =
situation just as one could expect by this kind of rabbits foot =
thinking?=20
From: David E. Smith=20
To: David Sweetin=20
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Isolating Manifold Question
I agree with you...except I would go a little further. (Refer to my =
post
to Joel for my excuse for my "short" statement about open or shut.)
I would just add to your statement that FULLY open is not the only
case of the valve being open. Here is why:
=20
Once the valve is open a certain amount the path is no longer =
effectively restricted.=20
For a given size opening (i.e. isolator valve opening), there is a =
critical differential=20
pressure. Once that critical differential pressure is reached, flow =
rate will not increase=20
even if the differential pressure increases. Working this backwards =
(kind of), if the=20
opening of your isolator keeps the flow rate across the isolator for =
the maximum=20
your regulator would deliver during normal breathing (in other words =
not a free flow=20
malfunction)... And the differential pressure across the isolator is =
minimal (as it would=20
be in normal cases)...The only time a partially open manifold would be =
TOO restricted,=20
was when the flow rate out of a orifice caused a differential pressure =
large enough to=20
exceed the critical differential pressure AND the flow rate for that =
opening did not keep up with
the flow rate out of the orifice. That flow rate would correspond to =
a failed regulator and you=20
would not want the tanks to equalize anyway!
=20
Now....Having said ALL that...Have I or would I do this =
calculation...NO WAY. Although with a=20
little experimenting one could determine that it did not take much for =
the flow rate across the=20
isolator to keep up with breathing. This experiment could be =
performed on a single tank and=20
regulator (just watch the SPG to see if it dips or not). In any =
case...The point of this verbose=20
post is only to say that partially open does not mean shut. Partially =
open does not necessarily=20
mean restricted.
So dive the way you determine to be safe...smart...whatever...
Just make the arguments make sense.
=20
Cheers!
dsmith218@ho*.co*
ICQ# 25409809
Moderation is for the poor, and the healthy...of which I am neither. - =
Polver
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: David Sweetin [mailto:dsweetin@ea*.ne*]
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 11:08 AM
To: David E. Smith
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: Isolating Manifold Question
Just a clarification,
=20
If it is not shut, it is either RESTRICTED, or open.
The restricted orifice concept is part of basic open water training.
Now dust off those basic scuba books and tell us what it says about =
that.
Dave
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David E. Smith=20
Subject: RE: Isolating Manifold Question
I say again, louder...
=20
If it is not shut, it is open.
=20
(This is a good argument, don't you think?)
dsmith218@ho*.co*
ICQ# 25409809
Moderation is for the poor, and the healthy...of which I am neither. =
- Polver
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Silverstein [mailto:JoelSilverstein@sn*.ne*]
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 12:48 AM
To: David E. Smith; RDecker388@ao*.co*; rikard.lundgren@sw*.se*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Isolating Manifold Question
If it's not open it's closed.=20
At 10:18 PM 4/14/2001 -0400, David E. Smith wrote:
I don't think it is "common sense" that a valve be fully open or
fully shut. That is a matter of opinion. Clearly there are
arguments/opinions
for either method (fully open or partially shut).
dsmith218@ho*.co*
ICQ# 25409809
Moderation is for the poor, and the healthy...of which I am =
neither. -
Polver
-----Original Message-----
From: RDecker388@ao*.co* [mailto:RDecker388@ao*.co*]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 7:55 PM
To: rikard.lundgren@sw*.se*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: Isolating Manifold Question
In a message dated 4/14/01 9:55:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rikard.lundgren@sw*.se* writes:
> >As for the 3/4 of European divers using this method, divers =
taking there
> first steps into tech training , do so with IANTD or TDI,
> >, as shut downs are apart of syllabus, my instructor & =
people i have
> listened to use this method, and as far as i a aware As the said
> organisations are wide spread >around Europe , i can only =
conclude that
they
> are also shown this method.
>
I suspect this is more a matter of the individual instructor than =
what's
actually in the standards. I've read both of these agency's =
standards at
one
time or another and do not recall a single line about requiring =
paritially
open ISOs.
Common sense dictates that all valves need to be either all the =
way on or
all
the way off. In a stressful situation requiring a valve shut-down =
it would
be way too easy to turn the valve the wrong way if it's only =
partly open.
With a strict on/off approach, the valve is only going to turn one =
way......
THE RIGHT ONE! Bare handed, gloves or mitts, shutting down a =
valve is not a
difficult matter with a little practice.
Bob D.
www.SportDiverHQ.com
--
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to =
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
--
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to =
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Dave, now that you have put out this piece of =
complete=20
bullshit and in your little mind successfully obfuscated the realities =
that=20
actually go into the thinking of manifold operation underwater in diving =
( and=20
there is no way you do jack shit in diving ), why don't you go ahead an=20
entertain us all by telling us what kind of blithering idiot turns the =
isolator=20
knob upside down? Since you are such a big "expert" on valves, maybe you =
can=20
tell us all what this accomplishes, besides acting as a visible "tip of =
the=20
iceberg" warning to anyone who sees you that you are a complete stroke =
who has=20
no clue and is likely to act in a bad situation just as one could expect =
by this=20
kind of rabbits foot thinking? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:dsmith218@ho*.co*" title=3Ddsmith218@ho*.co*>David =
E.=20
Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:dsweetin@ea*.ne*" =
title=3Ddsweetin@ea*.ne*>David=20
Sweetin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com"=20
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 17, 2001
=
8:53=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Isolating
Manifold =
Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>I agree=20
with you...except I would go a little further. (Refer to my=20
post</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>to Joel=20
for my excuse for my "short" statement about open or=20
shut.)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>I would=20
just add to your statement that FULLY open is not the =
only</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>case of=20
the valve being open. Here is why:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>Once the=20
valve is open a certain amount </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001>the path is no longer =
effectively=20
restricted. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>For a given size opening (i.e. =
isolator valve=20
opening), </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>there</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001> is a critical =
differential=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>pressure. Once that =
</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>critical</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001> differential =
pressure=20
is</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001> reached, flow rate will not increase=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>even</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001> if the differential=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>pressure increases. </SPAN></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001>Working this backwards =
(kind of),=20
if the </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>opening of=20
your isolator keeps the flow</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001> rate =
</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D4><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma size=3D3><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001>across the isolator for =
the maximum=20
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma
size=3D3><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001>your regulator would=20
deliver</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001> during normal breathing (in other words =
not a free=20
flow </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma
size=3D3><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>malfunction)...</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001> And =
the differential=20
pressure across the isolator is minimal (as it would =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>be in=20
normal cases)...The only time a partially open manifold would=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>be TOO restricted, </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>was when=20
the flow rate out of a orifice caused a </SPAN></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D030363400-18042001>differential pressure =
large enough=20
to </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>exceed the=20
critical differential</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001> pressure AND the flow rate for that =
opening did not=20
keep up with</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>the flow=20
rate out of the orifice. That flow rate would correspond to=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>a=20
failed regulator and you </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>would not=20
want the tanks to equalize</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001> anyway!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></FONT></FON
T>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>Now....Having said ALL that...Have =
I or would I=20
do this calculation...NO WAY. Although with a =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>little=20
experimenting one could determine that it did not take much for the =
flow rate=20
across the </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>isolator=20
to keep up with breathing. This experiment could be performed on =
a=20
single tank and </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>regulator (just watch the SPG to see =
if it dips=20
or not).</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001> In any case...The point of this =
verbose=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>post is=20
only to say that partially open does not mean shut. =
</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>Partially open does=20
not necessarily </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>mean=20
restricted.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>So dive=20
the way you determine to be =
safe...smart...whatever...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030363400-18042001>Just make=20
the arguments make sense.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030363400-18042001>Cheers!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D4><FONT color=3D#808000=20
face=3D"Lucida Handwriting">dsmith218@ho*.co*<BR></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DTahoma>ICQ# 25409809</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3D"Monotype Corsiva" size=3D4>Moderation =
is for the=20
poor, and the healthy...of which I am neither. - Polver<BR> =
</FONT></P>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> David Sweetin=20
[mailto:dsweetin@ea*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 17, =
2001 11:08=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> David E. Smith<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Isolating Manifold=20
Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Just a clarification,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If it is not shut, it is either
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>RESTRICTED, </FONT><FONT size=3D2>or open.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The restricted orifice concept is part of basic =
open water=20
training.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now dust off those basic scuba books and tell us =
what it=20
says about that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dave</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:dsmith218@ho*.co*" =
title=3Ddsmith218@ho*.co*>David E.=20
Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Isolating =
Manifold=20
Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030290700-17042001>I say=20
again, louder...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030290700-17042001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030290700-17042001>If it is=20
not shut, it is open.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D030290700-17042001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D030290700-17042001>(This is=20
a good argument, don't you think?)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D4><FONT color=3D#808000 face=3D"Lucida =
Handwriting"><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:dsmith218@ho*.co*">dsmith218@home.com</A><BR></FONT><
FONT=
=20
color=3D#000080 face=3DTahoma>ICQ# 25409809</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3D"Monotype Corsiva" =
size=3D4>Moderation is for the=20
poor, and the healthy...of which I am neither. - Polver<BR> =20
</FONT></P>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Joel
Silverstein =
[<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:JoelSilverstein@sn*.ne*">mailto:JoelSilverstein@snet.net<=
/A>]<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Sunday, April 15, 2001 12:48 AM<BR><B>To:</B> David E. Smith;
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:RDecker388@ao*.co*">RDecker388@aol.com</A>; <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rikard.lundgren@sw*.se*">rikard.lundgren@swipnet.se</A>=
<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A><BR><B
>S=
ubject:</B>=20
RE: Isolating Manifold Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT =
size=3D3>If it's not=20
open it's closed. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>At 10:18 PM 4/14/2001
-0400, =
David E.=20
Smith wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite type=3D"cite" cite>I don't think it is =
"common sense"=20
that a valve be fully open or<BR>fully shut. That is a =
matter of=20
opinion. Clearly there are<BR>arguments/opinions<BR>for =
either=20
method (fully open or partially =
shut).<BR><BR>dsmith218@ho*.co*<BR>ICQ#=20
25409809<BR><BR>Moderation is for the poor, and the healthy...of =
which I=20
am neither.
-<BR>Polver<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original=20
Message-----<BR>From: RDecker388@ao*.co* [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:RDecker388@ao*.co*"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:RDecker388@ao*.co*</A>]<BR>Sent: =
Saturday, April=20
14, 2001 7:55 PM<BR>To: rikard.lundgren@sw*.se*<BR>Cc:=20
techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR>Subject: Re: Isolating Manifold=20
Question<BR><BR><BR>In a message dated 4/14/01 9:55:22 AM
Eastern =
Daylight=20
Time,<BR>rikard.lundgren@sw*.se* writes:<BR><BR>> >As for =
the 3/4=20
of European divers using this method, divers taking there<BR>> =
first=20
steps into tech training , do so with IANTD or=20
TDI,<BR>> >, as shut downs are apart of =
syllabus,=20
my instructor & people i have<BR>> listened to use =
this=20
method, and as far as i a aware As the said<BR>> organisations =
are wide=20
spread >around Europe , i can only conclude =
that<BR>they<BR>> are=20
also shown this method.<BR>><BR><BR><BR>I suspect this is
more =
a matter=20
of the individual instructor than what's<BR>actually in the=20
standards. I've read both of these agency's standards=20
at<BR>one<BR>time or another and do not recall a single line about =
requiring paritially<BR>open ISOs.<BR><BR>Common sense dictates =
that all=20
valves need to be either all the way on or<BR>all<BR>the way =
off. In=20
a stressful situation requiring a valve shut-down it would<BR>be =
way too=20
easy to turn the valve the wrong way if it's only partly =
open.<BR>With a=20
strict on/off approach, the valve is only going to turn one=20
way......<BR>THE RIGHT ONE! Bare handed, gloves or mitts, =
shutting=20
down a valve is not a<BR>difficult matter with a little=20
practice.<BR><BR>Bob D.<BR><A =
href=3D"http://www.sportdiverhq.com/"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">www.SportDiverHQ.com</A><BR>--<BR>Send mail
for =
the=20
`techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.<BR>Send=20
subscribe/unsubscribe requests to=20
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