George,

The problem that i have is that I dont own a boat, and I dont have enuff 
money to charter a boat by myself, and when you start to talk about a 
boat big enough to charter for offshore with a captain who has half a 
clue, that captain wants to load some of his friends or other customers 
or "crew" on it and now you are back to stroke city. As for two or three 
boats or drifiting deco, fugetaboutit you just cannot convince any of 
these people to even try it, unless you are willing to come across with 
5 grand a day or some other such ridiculous number.

Perhaps it is just the accident of nature that made you who you are< son 
of a boat yard owner/successful business owner/successful business 
person> that you dont see this fundamental obstacle that we have here in 
the North east. I have gotten my capt license and im pursuing boat 
ownership, but its still going to be some time before i have a boat big 
enuff to conduct safe diving< much less tech diving > off of.

What i would like to know most is how you got your core group started, 
and im talking about ocean as i know the stories about main english 
gavin turner etc and cave, i want to know about ocean<please, i dont 
mean to seem demanding> and how you found like minded people to buddy up 
with. I can never find anyone who wants to dive with me who is at my 
level, either i am leading a tour dive for a single tank person or going 
solo w/ strokes around who are as good as me or better but want to dive 
solo. And i know thats a fucked up attitude, but my other option is to 
sit on the beach all the time.

Marv



Trey wrote:

> Jim, it is not about having a bunch of expensive gear. It is about attitude.
> It is about consciously reducing risk, it is about being responsible, it is
> about knowing when to dive and who to dive with :
> 
> 1) Rule Number One: "Don't dive with strokes". A stroke is an attitude
> thing.
> 
> 2) Rule Number Two: "Don't dive". Know when to use this rule, and never
> break Rule Number One.
> 
> Look at what I do and look at the results over a long time involving a lot
> of divers and dives. I am not a risktaker at all. Once you guys see that,
> the light will come on. You guys are making risk where there should be none,
> or where it can be all but eliminated very simply, but none of you want to
> hear that part. You do like to look at the gear suggestions, because they
> are so fucking obvious, unless you believe I am some supernatural genius.
> 
> I started doing this when I had little kids, lots of responsibilities, a
> job, people who care about me , a real life , etc. I covered my ass there,
> made sure those people were covered totally and that all my responsibilities
> had been met, and then I told the assholes and morons ( the ones who "hate"
> me so much ) to fuck off, and I put together my own organization done right
> with no bullshit or compromise, and I eliminated the bungee jumpers and
> strokes, and ran off the pretenders, and operated and will operate in a DIR
> fashion and will not for one minute compromise with any of you on any point
> for any reason ever.
> 
> I DON"T HAVE TO - and that makes it easy for me to run the best show in
> diving. You guys can either do that or take the attitude of mediocrity and
> compromise that is the definition of a stroke's attitude.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Cobb [mailto:cobber@ci*.co*]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 4:52 PM
> To: vbtech@ci*.co*; Kevin Connell; dwiden@ho*.co*;
> captjt@mi*.co*
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: Deep wreck in FL
> 
> 
> George, the main problem here as I see it is that if strict DIR standards
> were applied to every tech diver on the east coast fully 90% would be
> disqualified. The main reason is the commitment needed for the physical
> requirements, the hours of team training, the total eradication of all forms
> of personal preference in gear configuration, the money needed to hire
> stroke-free boats, the scooters, the support teams, etc. etc.
> 
> People look at all this and just say "fuck it, I'm taking my chances". If
> you get a 70% compliance rate with DIR techniques you need to consider this
> a miracle. Let's look at what you have pretty much single-handedly
> accomplished thus far:
> 
> -The near complete eradication of the dual bladder bungee wing.
> -The almost universal adoption of the DIR rigged backplate.
> -The complete elimination of the use of independent doubles (at least in the
> US).
> -The universal acceptance of the AL40 as the ideal stage bottle.
> -The proper use of the long hose in almost all cases.
> -Drysuits for deco diving is considered the standard.
> -The belt mounted canister light.
> -And several other things I'm no doubt missing.
> 
> Not a bad list of victories, George. BTW I'm talking up and coming
> techdivers here, not the old-school hopeless idiots.
> 
> This has been a long, hard battle for you, and at some personal cost as you
> have accumulated a huge list of people who hate your guts. I don't agree
> with JT's posts, I think he's better than that, but George in your battles
> you have gone personal with quite a few people now and then, so you really
> shouldn't be belly-aching about JT's posts. Sticks and stones and all that.
> 
> I am pissed at you comparing us to Stone... Stone was a huge bullshit
> artist, he did a giant scam bilking millions out of gullible idiots,
> screwing over you and lying to all divers. This is not an appropriate
> comparison to us guys who don't want anything from anybody but to go out and
> do some fun diving.
> 
> I'm not trying to make peace between you and JT, it does not matter to me
> whether you guys get along or not. I just want you to know that most of us
> are using argon on our belts, using the long hose, spreading the word
> because yours and JJ's system works. And I myself appreciate your efforts
> over the years greatly. And I hope JJ makes a million on his business, the
> scuba industry could use a company with some integrity for a change.
> 
>    Jim
>  -------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
> 
>> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
>> Reply-To: vbtech@ci*.co*
>> Date: 14 Mar 2001 07:06:58 -0500
>> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>, Kevin Connell <kevin@co*.ne*>,
>> dwiden@ho*.co*, captjt@mi*.co*, vbtech@ci*.co*
>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>> 
>> Jim, I've done enough of this in all respects to know how to pull it off
>> easily. I have spent my life on and in the water. Nobody wants to listen
> 
> to
> 
>> that. I have no time to argue.
>> You guys keep beating your heads against the wall - that is easier than
>> simply looking at somebody who does it flawlessly every time, now isn't
> 
> it?
> 
>> What you guys are doing is no different than when Bill Stone tried to do
>> Wakulla. He took 3 months to get to where I sent Ted Cole , Chris Werner
> 
> and
> 
>> John Rose with my scooters after drawing them a map and telling them how
> 
> to
> 
>> do it and where to drop. They did it and JJ and I passed them in the cave
> 
> on
> 
>> the way to 19 grand.
>> 
>> 3 months of diving daily and Stone could not get there. I see you guys
> 
> doing
> 
>> exactly the same thing, and like Stone, you all think you know better than
>> the guy who has done it over and over and never fucked up and always gets
>> the job done and never has any excuses, and then when I make a comment, I
>> have to listen to personal bullshit out of JT about my girlfriend.
>> 
>> You guys are done with me. The personal bullshit had finished that. Try
> 
> JJ.
> 
>> My bet is he is done , too. There are those who want to learn, and those
> 
> who
> 
>> want to prove something. I have no time for the latter. There are too many
>> people out there who are smart enough to carry the ball, and that is where
> 
> I
> 
>> am going to focus any help that I am willing to give. The know it alls can
>> keep knowing it all and putting out the bullshit and excuses.
>> 
>> When I read that shit about the argon bottles coming out of the velcro and
>> the lift bags shot from 275 feet, I finally realized that you guys have
> 
> not
> 
>> listened to anything, not learned anything, and are only posing in a bad
>> attempt to mimic part of what you "think" we are doing with zero
>> understanding of any of the logic.
>> 
>> We do not use those liftbags for that , and we do not use tank mounted
> 
> argon
> 
>> to wreck dive.
>> We do not do ANYTHING you guys are currently doing. I found your operation
>> up there ill thought out and extremely dangerous, and JT is the
> 
> ringleader.
> 
>> I want no association with any of that kind of activity.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim Cobb [mailto:cobber@ci*.co*]
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:29 PM
>> To: Kevin Connell; dwiden@ho*.co*; captjt@mi*.co*; VB Tech
>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>> 
>> 
>> Yes, the resentment factor is there. George, you have a track record you
> 
> are
> 
>> proud of and who can blame you. And the fact is that JT has pulled off
> 
> some
> 
>> pretty decent dives himself, no matter how much you may disapprove of his
>> technique. Fact is he runs a tight ship and will not let people dive with
>> him who are not up to his standards, which, believe it or not, are very
>> high. I would not have qualified, nor would I have asked as I know what
> 
> his
> 
>> requirements are. As a matter of fact I think Rick Atkins is the only
> 
> person
> 
>> with whom he will do this deep stuff at this time.
>> 
>> It's not every day that attempts are made to identify a wreck at near 500'
>> in the gulf stream, certainly more could be said about the attempt than
> 
> the
> 
>> criticism that was the core of your comments. Sure he might have found it
>> with a grouper ball and Cuban reel, but then maybe one of 100 other
> 
> factors
> 
>> could have intervened as well. Some people have to travel their own road
> 
> and
> 
>> make their own discoveries. Certainly you learned untold amounts of stuff
>> the hard way. And if they survive certainly some level of congratulations
> 
> is
> 
>> in order.
>> 
>> And if you don't survive the attempt, here is an very interesting quote by
>> Homer Hickam in Chowdhury's book The Last Dive-
>> 
>> "The diving community, for all its references to the gentle contemplation
> 
> of
> 
>> the beauty of the undersea world, is actually a very harsh group. From all
>> those who dare to enter it, we demand near perfection in skill and form,
>> including the method and style of our dying. To die while diving is one
>> thing, but to die poorly is to wipe clean all the tributes and laurels we
>> might have gathered during our diving careers. All divers know this, and
> 
> so
> 
>> it is somewhere in our minds on every dive--the need, if it comes to that,
>> to die cleanly and bravely, if not wisely. We are a band of brothers and
>> sisters who admire the lost cave diver (or wreck diver) who stubbornly
>> clings to life to the end, breathing down his tank to the nubs, but we
>> disdain the diver who panics and dies with a tank still half-filled with
>> gas. Both divers are just as dead, just as foolish, but one is allowed to
>> ascend into our version of Valhalla while the other is sent to diving
>> Purgatory for all eternity."
>> 
>> You may be 10,000 ft back and a cave roof collapses on you head. No amount
>> of DIR will save you from that. But you would damn sure make it Valhalla
> 
> and
> 
>> I think JT would as well. But I doubt it will come to that, both you guys
>> are too damn good and too damn lucky.
>> 
>> Jim
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>> 
>>> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
>>> Reply-To: vbtech@ci*.co*
>>> Date: 13 Mar 2001 19:39:50 -0500
>>> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>, vbtech@ci*.co*, Kevin
>> 
>> Connell
>> 
>>> <kevin@co*.ne*>, dwiden@ho*.co*, captjt@mi*.co*
>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>> 
>>> Jim, the resentment factor is always going to make it impossible for
>> 
> those
> 
>>> guys to learn from me any more than Tom Mouth could learn from me. That
>> 
> is
> 
>>> your guys problem, not mine. You guys have not even scratched the surface
>> 
>> of
>> 
>>> what I know that makes me and the WKPP tick on this whole subject, and
>> 
>> while
>> 
>>> you personally have no problem learning from me, your buddies can not do
>> 
>> it.
>> 
>>> Their loss , not mine. I know, they are guessing. Real simple.
>>> 
>>> What it boils down to is that I can say a few things here and there, and
>>> most people are smart enough to get it, but when it comes to the real
>> 
>> deal,
>> 
>>> if I want to rock, I grab a few WKPP guys and DIR with no bullshit. The
>> 
>> only
>> 
>>> way to go. I do not fuck with anyone who does not get the joke.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jim Cobb [mailto:cobber@ci*.co*]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:25 AM
>>> To: vbtech@ci*.co*; Kevin Connell; dwiden@ho*.co*;
>>> captjt@mi*.co*
>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>> Subject: Re: Deep wreck in FL
>>> 
>>> 
>>> George-
>>> 
>>> While I have read plenty of bullshit posts on this list about improbable
>>> profiles I must say that I have never read JT or anybody else associated
>>> with VBtech tell anything but the truth on actual bottom times and deco
>>> schedules.
>>> 
>>> On the contrary we listen very closely to your continuing research on
>>> extreme diving survival strategies and JT and his dive partners have done
>>> much over the years to apply deep stops, Trimix deco gases and other
>>> techniques you, JJ and the WKPP have pioneered and made available to
>> 
>> fellow
>> 
>>> techdivers.
>>> 
>>> And you yourself have said that the Ocean is no place for WKPP style
>> 
>> bottom
>> 
>>> times and we agree completely, there are too many variables associated
>> 
>> with
>> 
>>> ocean diving to screw around with hours-long deco, particularly up here
>> 
> in
> 
>>> the north. Heroic bottom times are not a part of our tech diving and
>> 
> never
> 
>>> will be. I do agree with you that a deep scooter should be a prerequisite
>>> for this type of high current diving, if you don't have one it appears
>> 
>> that
>> 
>>> it's pretty much a crapshoot on getting to your target.
>>> 
>>> Jim
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>>> 
>>>> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
>>>> Reply-To: vbtech@ci*.co*
>>>> Date: 6 Mar 2001 05:47:36 -0500
>>>> To: Kevin Connell <kevin@co*.ne*>, dwiden@ho*.co*,
>>>> vbtech@ci*.co*, captjt@mi*.co*
>>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>>> 
>>>> Kev, these guys bounce to a wreck and spend two minutes and call it 30,
>>> 
>>> and
>>> 
>>>> then deco for a week. That is the one or two they actually hit. The rest
>>> 
>>> are
>>> 
>>>> sand drift dives in the Gulf Stream that take all day.
>>>> 
>>>> When we do it we get my brother's or fathers boat or charter other
>>> 
>> persons
>> 
>>>> who have fast boats with excellent fishing sounders that will mark
>>> 
>>> anything,
>>> 
>>>> and sometimes we run a second boat as well. We mark them with the Cuban
>>> 
>>> hand
>>> 
>>>> reel and grouper ball with the freediving float and then scooter from up
>>>> current down to the line and then along the line below the current to
>>> 
> the
> 
>>>> wreck, and when we are done, we cut the grouper ball off and reel up the
>>>> float line and deco out on the drift. I have a stockpile of 40 pound
>>> 
> iron
> 
>>>> "balls" for this. They hit every time with the Cuban reel and the tuna
>>> 
>>> line
>>> 
>>>> . For longer projects, we charter a boat for the time it takes to get it
>>>> done, like the Bahamian stuff that Carmichael was doing. That was all
>>>> massive depth and no bullshit or misses - ever.
>>>> 
>>>> For the regular weenie wrecks we mark them with a hook and line and
>>> 
>>> scooter
>>> 
>>>> in, secure the line, dive, then pull the hook and drift with the float.
>>>> 
>>>> Scooters and rebreathers for the crazy stuff. Double 80's for the weenie
>>>> wrecks.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Kevin Connell [mailto:kevin@co*.ne*]
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 8:59 PM
>>>> To: dwiden@ho*.co*; vbtech@ci*.co*; captjt@mi*.co*
>>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> You guys sure get your panties in a wad easy.
>>>> 
>>>> The point is this:  You can kill yourself doing anything.   Using the
>>>> argument "people die on rebreathers" is not a reason not to dive one in
>>>> general.   What's next?  Don't use a proper scooter because they might
>>>> actually allow you to get something done on a dive and you only can find
>>>> one wreck a year so you might get bored?
>>>> 
>>>> At 08:00 PM 3/5/2001 -0500, David B. Widen wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Kevin
>>>>> 
>>>>> So what is the purpose of your post. If you have nothing reasonable
>>>> 
>> (good
>> 
>>>> or
>>>> 
>>>>> bad) to say about an activity then do not waste the bandwidth.
>>>>> 
>>>>> David
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: listowner@ci*.co* [mailto:listowner@ci*.co*]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Kevin Connell
>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:08 PM
>>>>> To: trey@ne*.co*; vbtech@ci*.co*; captjt@mi*.co*
>>>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> JT, Do you drive a car? Ride in an airplane?  I'm not even sure you can
>>>>> walk, because legs have been known to kill people.
>>>> 
>>>> --
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