The resentment toward Trey is his way of conducting himself in post, not his
knowledge and skills. There is great deal of respect for Trey's and his
experiences, knowledge and skills. If he would learn to communicate instead
of slam, use a little mutual respect & discuss, and knock off the BS that
would go a long way. Trey assumes that everyone hates him, which is not
true. He has not learned how to communicate, he just yells.

JT & GI are alike in many ways and significantly different in others (Thank
God). JT does communicate with us and others well. He does not need to
"George" anyone and I think he knows that now. JT stands on his integrity
and truth, he jokes around a bit and tells some super stories, but when it
is serious it is all truth.

The dive JT & Rick did, with our support, was our dive. It was not a GI or
WKPP dive. GI has NOT offered or made it easy ask for advise without getting
slam or flamed. Stuff that was private is now public. Some of what GI has
said could well have been used to get on the wreck. Many steps and method
were done and used without his suggestion (predive planning and execution).
Some of the post dive stuff is very good information and points but some is
just typical flame away stuff.

Are we DIR here in the Mid-Atlantic - NO. Are we working in that
directions - YES. GI appears to see thing as Black or White. JJ is at least
is able to see the grey. GI has to get off his high horse and start
communicating with us. JT would be a great point man or we will have to do
the best we can without direct communications. GI will be on the outside
with no connection in and none out. I see this as a lose - lose situation
for all.

Jim is right to try and find a way to get everyone to talk to each. The
Stone comparison is way out of line GI. So GI & JT what will it take for the
groups to get beyond this, re-establish connections, so we can have a win -
win situation!

I suggest this goes back to private where this belongs and not public. I
have no time for all this little boy and sand box conduct that has been
occurring.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: listowner@ci*.co* [mailto:listowner@ci*.co*]On
Behalf Of Trey
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 7:07 AM
To: Jim Cobb; Kevin Connell; dwiden@ho*.co*; captjt@mi*.co*;
vbtech@ci*.co*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL


Jim, I've done enough of this in all respects to know how to pull it off
easily. I have spent my life on and in the water. Nobody wants to listen to
that. I have no time to argue.
You guys keep beating your heads against the wall - that is easier than
simply looking at somebody who does it flawlessly every time, now isn't it?

What you guys are doing is no different than when Bill Stone tried to do
Wakulla. He took 3 months to get to where I sent Ted Cole , Chris Werner and
John Rose with my scooters after drawing them a map and telling them how to
do it and where to drop. They did it and JJ and I passed them in the cave on
the way to 19 grand.

3 months of diving daily and Stone could not get there. I see you guys doing
exactly the same thing, and like Stone, you all think you know better than
the guy who has done it over and over and never fucked up and always gets
the job done and never has any excuses, and then when I make a comment, I
have to listen to personal bullshit out of JT about my girlfriend.

You guys are done with me. The personal bullshit had finished that. Try JJ.
My bet is he is done , too. There are those who want to learn, and those who
want to prove something. I have no time for the latter. There are too many
people out there who are smart enough to carry the ball, and that is where I
am going to focus any help that I am willing to give. The know it alls can
keep knowing it all and putting out the bullshit and excuses.

When I read that shit about the argon bottles coming out of the velcro and
the lift bags shot from 275 feet, I finally realized that you guys have not
listened to anything, not learned anything, and are only posing in a bad
attempt to mimic part of what you "think" we are doing with zero
understanding of any of the logic.

We do not use those liftbags for that , and we do not use tank mounted argon
to wreck dive.
We do not do ANYTHING you guys are currently doing. I found your operation
up there ill thought out and extremely dangerous, and JT is the ringleader.
I want no association with any of that kind of activity.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cobb [mailto:cobber@ci*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:29 PM
To: Kevin Connell; dwiden@ho*.co*; captjt@mi*.co*; VB Tech
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL


Yes, the resentment factor is there. George, you have a track record you are
proud of and who can blame you. And the fact is that JT has pulled off some
pretty decent dives himself, no matter how much you may disapprove of his
technique. Fact is he runs a tight ship and will not let people dive with
him who are not up to his standards, which, believe it or not, are very
high. I would not have qualified, nor would I have asked as I know what his
requirements are. As a matter of fact I think Rick Atkins is the only person
with whom he will do this deep stuff at this time.

It's not every day that attempts are made to identify a wreck at near 500'
in the gulf stream, certainly more could be said about the attempt than the
criticism that was the core of your comments. Sure he might have found it
with a grouper ball and Cuban reel, but then maybe one of 100 other factors
could have intervened as well. Some people have to travel their own road and
make their own discoveries. Certainly you learned untold amounts of stuff
the hard way. And if they survive certainly some level of congratulations is
in order.

And if you don't survive the attempt, here is an very interesting quote by
Homer Hickam in Chowdhury's book The Last Dive-

"The diving community, for all its references to the gentle contemplation of
the beauty of the undersea world, is actually a very harsh group. From all
those who dare to enter it, we demand near perfection in skill and form,
including the method and style of our dying. To die while diving is one
thing, but to die poorly is to wipe clean all the tributes and laurels we
might have gathered during our diving careers. All divers know this, and so
it is somewhere in our minds on every dive--the need, if it comes to that,
to die cleanly and bravely, if not wisely. We are a band of brothers and
sisters who admire the lost cave diver (or wreck diver) who stubbornly
clings to life to the end, breathing down his tank to the nubs, but we
disdain the diver who panics and dies with a tank still half-filled with
gas. Both divers are just as dead, just as foolish, but one is allowed to
ascend into our version of Valhalla while the other is sent to diving
Purgatory for all eternity."

You may be 10,000 ft back and a cave roof collapses on you head. No amount
of DIR will save you from that. But you would damn sure make it Valhalla and
I think JT would as well. But I doubt it will come to that, both you guys
are too damn good and too damn lucky.

   Jim
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/

> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
> Reply-To: vbtech@ci*.co*
> Date: 13 Mar 2001 19:39:50 -0500
> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>, vbtech@ci*.co*, Kevin
Connell
> <kevin@co*.ne*>, dwiden@ho*.co*, captjt@mi*.co*
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>
> Jim, the resentment factor is always going to make it impossible for those
> guys to learn from me any more than Tom Mouth could learn from me. That is
> your guys problem, not mine. You guys have not even scratched the surface
of
> what I know that makes me and the WKPP tick on this whole subject, and
while
> you personally have no problem learning from me, your buddies can not do
it.
> Their loss , not mine. I know, they are guessing. Real simple.
>
> What it boils down to is that I can say a few things here and there, and
> most people are smart enough to get it, but when it comes to the real
deal,
> if I want to rock, I grab a few WKPP guys and DIR with no bullshit. The
only
> way to go. I do not fuck with anyone who does not get the joke.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Cobb [mailto:cobber@ci*.co*]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:25 AM
> To: vbtech@ci*.co*; Kevin Connell; dwiden@ho*.co*;
> captjt@mi*.co*
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: Deep wreck in FL
>
>
> George-
>
> While I have read plenty of bullshit posts on this list about improbable
> profiles I must say that I have never read JT or anybody else associated
> with VBtech tell anything but the truth on actual bottom times and deco
> schedules.
>
> On the contrary we listen very closely to your continuing research on
> extreme diving survival strategies and JT and his dive partners have done
> much over the years to apply deep stops, Trimix deco gases and other
> techniques you, JJ and the WKPP have pioneered and made available to
fellow
> techdivers.
>
> And you yourself have said that the Ocean is no place for WKPP style
bottom
> times and we agree completely, there are too many variables associated
with
> ocean diving to screw around with hours-long deco, particularly up here in
> the north. Heroic bottom times are not a part of our tech diving and never
> will be. I do agree with you that a deep scooter should be a prerequisite
> for this type of high current diving, if you don't have one it appears
that
> it's pretty much a crapshoot on getting to your target.
>
> Jim
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>
>> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
>> Reply-To: vbtech@ci*.co*
>> Date: 6 Mar 2001 05:47:36 -0500
>> To: Kevin Connell <kevin@co*.ne*>, dwiden@ho*.co*,
>> vbtech@ci*.co*, captjt@mi*.co*
>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>
>> Kev, these guys bounce to a wreck and spend two minutes and call it 30,
> and
>> then deco for a week. That is the one or two they actually hit. The rest
> are
>> sand drift dives in the Gulf Stream that take all day.
>>
>> When we do it we get my brother's or fathers boat or charter other
persons
>> who have fast boats with excellent fishing sounders that will mark
> anything,
>> and sometimes we run a second boat as well. We mark them with the Cuban
> hand
>> reel and grouper ball with the freediving float and then scooter from up
>> current down to the line and then along the line below the current to the
>> wreck, and when we are done, we cut the grouper ball off and reel up the
>> float line and deco out on the drift. I have a stockpile of 40 pound iron
>> "balls" for this. They hit every time with the Cuban reel and the tuna
> line
>> . For longer projects, we charter a boat for the time it takes to get it
>> done, like the Bahamian stuff that Carmichael was doing. That was all
>> massive depth and no bullshit or misses - ever.
>>
>> For the regular weenie wrecks we mark them with a hook and line and
> scooter
>> in, secure the line, dive, then pull the hook and drift with the float.
>>
>> Scooters and rebreathers for the crazy stuff. Double 80's for the weenie
>> wrecks.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kevin Connell [mailto:kevin@co*.ne*]
>> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 8:59 PM
>> To: dwiden@ho*.co*; vbtech@ci*.co*; captjt@mi*.co*
>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>
>>
>> You guys sure get your panties in a wad easy.
>>
>> The point is this:  You can kill yourself doing anything.   Using the
>> argument "people die on rebreathers" is not a reason not to dive one in
>> general.   What's next?  Don't use a proper scooter because they might
>> actually allow you to get something done on a dive and you only can find
>> one wreck a year so you might get bored?
>>
>> At 08:00 PM 3/5/2001 -0500, David B. Widen wrote:
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> So what is the purpose of your post. If you have nothing reasonable
(good
>> or
>>> bad) to say about an activity then do not waste the bandwidth.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: listowner@ci*.co* [mailto:listowner@ci*.co*]On
>>> Behalf Of Kevin Connell
>>> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:08 PM
>>> To: trey@ne*.co*; vbtech@ci*.co*; captjt@mi*.co*
>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>>
>>>
>>> JT, Do you drive a car? Ride in an airplane?  I'm not even sure you can
>>> walk, because legs have been known to kill people.
>>
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