Jim

As you know, Rule 4 applies.=20

This was not just task loading.  The guy was not up to doing an OC dive =
to 38m - I had to put him on my long hose once to exit the cave due to =
his OOA.  To put this in context, I still had more than half my gas =
remaining after sharing.   The same mistakes he made then killed him =
later.

David Shimell

-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Cobb [SMTP:cobber@ci*.co*]
Sent:	Wednesday, March 07, 2001 3:50 AM
To:	vbtech@ci*.co*; Kevin Connell; dwiden@ho*.co*; =
captjt@mi*.co*
Cc:	techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject:	Re: Deep wreck in FL

I think what JT may be referring to are those idiots who did that
clusterfuck dive searching for those uneatable, ugly-assed fish who too
stupid to realize they are extinct. From what I've read it sounds like =
the
fellow with the halcyon did not quite know what he was doing, got task
loaded, had a lame buddy team, and then paid the price.

I don't think that any rebreather can be made idiot-proof, or at least =
as
idiot-proof as an open circuit rig. There are rebreathers out there that =
are
so complex that they appear to take all the fun out of diving, i.e. the
surplus navy Mk15's, the cis-lunars (RIP) and the fundamentally flawed =
buddy
expirations. And who was that dumb-ass company who said their unit was =
good
down to 1000'?

JT may be on to something however, and that is to make the limitations =
of
open-circuit also be your limitation as to what kind of dives you are
willing to attempt. As long as you are sticking to rule of thirds then =
it's
your red-line, one which does not exist for a rebreather. Around here a
rebreather may give you the extra time needed to extricate yourself from =
a
bottom problem, but will you survive the accumulated deco?

IMHO, if you compare the Halcyon failure mode to electronic units =
combined
with it's track record it appears that if rebreathers are what you =
cannot
live without (no pun intended) then the Halcyon may be the best thing =
going.
But somewhere, somehow, some moron is going to get a hold of one and =
kill
himself with it, just like the same morons do with open circuit.

Now George there is a good chance I am full of shit on this, as I cannot
talk from rebreather experience, but am I more or less correct?

   Jim

 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/

> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
> Reply-To: vbtech@ci*.co*
> Date: 6 Mar 2001 20:01:22 -0500
> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>, vbtech@ci*.co*, Kevin =
Connell
> <kevin@co*.ne*>, dwiden@ho*.co*, captjt@mi*.co*
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>=20
> The bullshit I am talking about is his rebreather comment. That is the =
lie.
> The "these guys" I was referring to in the other comment are not VB.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Cobb [mailto:cobber@ci*.co*]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:25 AM
> To: vbtech@ci*.co*; Kevin Connell; dwiden@ho*.co*;
> captjt@mi*.co*
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: Deep wreck in FL
>=20
>=20
> George-
>=20
> While I have read plenty of bullshit posts on this list about =
improbable
> profiles I must say that I have never read JT or anybody else =
associated
> with VBtech tell anything but the truth on actual bottom times and =
deco
> schedules.
>=20
> On the contrary we listen very closely to your continuing research on
> extreme diving survival strategies and JT and his dive partners have =
done
> much over the years to apply deep stops, Trimix deco gases and other
> techniques you, JJ and the WKPP have pioneered and made available to =
fellow
> techdivers.
>=20
> And you yourself have said that the Ocean is no place for WKPP style =
bottom
> times and we agree completely, there are too many variables associated =
with
> ocean diving to screw around with hours-long deco, particularly up =
here in
> the north. Heroic bottom times are not a part of our tech diving and =
never
> will be. I do agree with you that a deep scooter should be a =
prerequisite
> for this type of high current diving, if you don't have one it appears =
that
> it's pretty much a crapshoot on getting to your target.
>=20
> Jim
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>=20
>> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
>> Reply-To: vbtech@ci*.co*
>> Date: 6 Mar 2001 05:47:36 -0500
>> To: Kevin Connell <kevin@co*.ne*>, dwiden@ho*.co*,
>> vbtech@ci*.co*, captjt@mi*.co*
>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>=20
>> Kev, these guys bounce to a wreck and spend two minutes and call it =
30,
> and
>> then deco for a week. That is the one or two they actually hit. The =
rest
> are
>> sand drift dives in the Gulf Stream that take all day.
>>=20
>> When we do it we get my brother's or fathers boat or charter other =
persons
>> who have fast boats with excellent fishing sounders that will mark
> anything,
>> and sometimes we run a second boat as well. We mark them with the =
Cuban
> hand
>> reel and grouper ball with the freediving float and then scooter from =
up
>> current down to the line and then along the line below the current to =
the
>> wreck, and when we are done, we cut the grouper ball off and reel up =
the
>> float line and deco out on the drift. I have a stockpile of 40 pound =
iron
>> "balls" for this. They hit every time with the Cuban reel and the =
tuna
> line
>> . For longer projects, we charter a boat for the time it takes to get =
it
>> done, like the Bahamian stuff that Carmichael was doing. That was all
>> massive depth and no bullshit or misses - ever.
>>=20
>> For the regular weenie wrecks we mark them with a hook and line and
> scooter
>> in, secure the line, dive, then pull the hook and drift with the =
float.
>>=20
>> Scooters and rebreathers for the crazy stuff. Double 80's for the =
weenie
>> wrecks.
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kevin Connell [mailto:kevin@co*.ne*]
>> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 8:59 PM
>> To: dwiden@ho*.co*; vbtech@ci*.co*; captjt@mi*.co*
>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>=20
>>=20
>> You guys sure get your panties in a wad easy.
>>=20
>> The point is this:  You can kill yourself doing anything.   Using the
>> argument "people die on rebreathers" is not a reason not to dive one =
in
>> general.   What's next?  Don't use a proper scooter because they =
might
>> actually allow you to get something done on a dive and you only can =
find
>> one wreck a year so you might get bored?
>>=20
>> At 08:00 PM 3/5/2001 -0500, David B. Widen wrote:
>>> Kevin
>>>=20
>>> So what is the purpose of your post. If you have nothing reasonable =
(good
>> or
>>> bad) to say about an activity then do not waste the bandwidth.
>>>=20
>>> David
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: listowner@ci*.co* [mailto:listowner@ci*.co*]On
>>> Behalf Of Kevin Connell
>>> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:08 PM
>>> To: trey@ne*.co*; vbtech@ci*.co*; captjt@mi*.co*
>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>> Subject: RE: Deep wreck in FL
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> JT, Do you drive a car? Ride in an airplane?  I'm not even sure you =
can
>>> walk, because legs have been known to kill people.
>>=20
>> --
>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to =
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> << Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to
> VBTech-request@ci*.=3D
>> com >>
>=20
>=20
> --
> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to =
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> << Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to =
VBTech-request@ci*.=3D
> com >>


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