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--Apple-Mail-286353236-3 content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I know this is going to piss off a lot of rec divers but I believe that = increasing your bottom PP02's for the purpose of avoiding a deco = obligation is a really stupid idea. It is typical of our sport that this = principle is embraced by almost everybody. Even to the point of calling = potentially deadly hyperoxic mixes "safeair". I think there should be an industry-wide ban of bottom or working PP02's = of anything over 1.2. And if you need to spend more time down there then = you need to do it right with doubles and a deco plan. The idea of = "standard" trimixes with 02 of 32 or 36 or greater is inverse to common = sense. Jim On Monday, October 9, 2000, at 01:20 AM, dmdalton wrote: David, Don & whomever else, Why does this need to be a gas that "tracks" air? Anyone who would be interested in the minimal extra training necessary for a recreationally oriented Trimix would either already be Nitrox trained or certainly = capable of it. As was already pointed out a Tri-Ox course could easily make = Nitrox a thing of the past. If we are talking about "no stop dives" then wouldn't = it make sense to boost the O2 level to get some increased bottom time? A = 21X24 @ 130 ft for 5 minutes calls for 1 min at 30, 20 & 10 (Deco Planner GF - = lo 25/hi 90). While a 28 X 35 gives you 10 min @ 130 and only adds 1 min at = 40 ft to the above. Nitrox has it's limits and so would Tri-Ox. I would = venture to say that an individual breathing Tri-Ox of 28 X 35 would be far less likely to ignore the 130 ft limit than someone breathing EAN 28. As for the Rec Agencies, I think they will be the ones to embrace this = mix which would be one more specialty that they could get into their = curriculum. They certainly have all embraced devil gas, I'm sorry, Nitrox. Yeah, I = know it took a while but when Tri-Ox hit's for real they will all jump on it = like a chicken on a June bug. The gentleman I took Nitrox from ( a former = NOAA Nitrox Diver of 14 years) was talking about standardized Tri-Ox 32 & = Tri-Ox 36, 3 years ago when I took the course. I believe the bigger challenge is the few shops that pump Trimix. In the = DC area I know of only one shop that pumps it and I understand that they = are getting in the neighborhood of $80 for a single tank of Trimix. = Outlandish, but then I understand that in NY you can get hit up $20 for a single of Nitrox. Dave Dalton ----- Original Message ----- From: David B. Widen <dwiden@ho*.co*> To: <donburke56@ne*.ne*>; 'Paul Braunbehrens' = <Bakalite@ba*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 2:53 PM Subject: RE: rec trimix > Don > > Good thought. It will be hell to get the rec agency to support. > I ran some of the numbers through Deco Planner and some other calculations. > > To more closely track air and without penalties a 21x24 works with END = of 80 > IAW DecoPlanner and END of 90 if you calc with N2 & O2 as narcotic = gases. > Without building the whole tables w/SIT and repet groups. There are several > general mixes that would work well. The Normoxic value would serve the > uninformed or hard headed person who exceeds 130. It would also = support and > assist in the transistion of new divers to this type of dive gas and = idea. > > Type Cost: 21x24 $.215/cuft 21x30 $.252/cuft > AL80 21x24 ~$17 21x30 ~$20 > ST95 21x24 ~$21 21x30 ~$24 > > Cost increase 3 to 5 times without over fills. > > David > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Don Burke [mailto:donburke56@ya*.co*] > > Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 7:56 AM > > To: Paul Braunbehrens; techdiver@aquanaut.com > > Subject: Re:rec trimix > > > > > > Comments scattered within > > > > --- Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*> wrote: > > > I think that this is where trimix computers come in. > > > Even if it's a > > > good "drop in" gas, I'd still like to track what I'm > > > really using. > > > > Certainly. It isn't rocket science in any case. I > > haven't worked out _every_ possibility so the He > > content may have to be backed off a couple of points > > to stay inside the air tables. > > > > A set of rec-tri tables wouldn't seem to be too hard > > to make up for repetitive diving, although PADI would > > probably have to actually come up with a new set of > > surface interval numbers to allow for He instead of > > the Xerox solution used for the surface intervals on > > the PADI EAN tables. > > > > > > > Also, because of O2 Tox there would have to be some > > > kind of an > > > "orientation class" at the least. If you go down to > > > 160 on air and > > > come back up right away you're stupid, but you won't > > > tox on O2. A > > > "drop in" gas would need some serious warning if it > > > has a higher O2 > > > content. > > > > Yeah, the orientation would be: > > > > "Remember when I told you to stay shallower than 130? > > Well this time I mean it." > > > > You didn't mention the CNS clock, but since we are on > > the subject of O2, I haven't figured out a way to run > > out the clock with 28% O2 without going well into deco > > stop diving or going below 130. I doubt there is one. > > > > > Don Burke wrote: > > > ~ > > > >As variation on the same theme, how about 28/35 as > > > a "drop-in" replacement for air? > > > > > > > >It is good to 130 feet under any conditions a rec > > > diver will see. > > > > > > > >The no stop times are longer than for air. > > > > > > > >The END at 130 feet is about 80 feet. > > > > > > > >The only downside is cost. > > > > > > > >Don Burke > > > >Chesapeake, Virginia > > > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to = `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to = `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. --Apple-Mail-286353236-3 content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable content-type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii <fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>I know this is going to piss off a = lot of rec divers but I believe that increasing your bottom PP02's for = the purpose of avoiding a deco obligation is a really stupid idea. It is = typical of our sport that this principle is embraced by almost = everybody. Even to the point of calling potentially deadly hyperoxic = mixes "safeair". I think there should be an industry-wide ban of bottom or working PP02's = of anything over 1.2. And if you need to spend more time down there then = you need to do it right with doubles and a deco plan. The idea of = "standard" trimixes with 02 of 32 or 36 or greater is inverse to common = sense. Jim On Monday, October 9, 2000, at 01:20 AM, dmdalton wrote: <italic>David, Don & whomever = else,</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>Why does this need to be a gas that = "tracks" air? Anyone who would = be</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>interested in the minimal extra = training necessary for a = recreationally</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>oriented Trimix would either already be = Nitrox trained or certainly = capable</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>of it. As was already pointed out a = Tri-Ox course could easily make Nitrox = a</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>thing of the past. If we are talking = about "no stop dives" then wouldn't = it</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>make sense to boost the O2 level to get = some increased bottom time? A = 21X24</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>@ 130 ft for 5 minutes calls for 1 min = at 30, 20 & 10 (Deco Planner GF - = lo</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>25/hi 90). While a 28 X 35 gives you 10 = min @ 130 and only adds 1 min at = 40</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>ft to the above. Nitrox has it's limits = and so would Tri-Ox. I would = venture</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>to say that an individual breathing = Tri-Ox of 28 X 35 would be far = less</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>likely to ignore the 130 ft limit than = someone breathing EAN 28.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>As for the Rec Agencies, I think they = will be the ones to embrace this = mix</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>which would be one more specialty that = they could get into their = curriculum.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>They certainly have all embraced devil = gas, I'm sorry, Nitrox. Yeah, I = know</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>it took a while but when Tri-Ox hit's = for real they will all jump on it = like</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>a chicken on a June bug. The gentleman = I took Nitrox from ( a former = NOAA</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>Nitrox Diver of 14 years) was talking = about standardized Tri-Ox 32 & = Tri-Ox</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>36, 3 years ago when I took the = course.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>I believe the bigger challenge is the = few shops that pump Trimix. In the = DC</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>area I know of only one shop that pumps = it and I understand that they = are</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>getting in the neighborhood of $80 for = a single tank of Trimix. = Outlandish,</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>but then I understand that in NY you = can get hit up $20 for a single = of</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>Nitrox.</italic><color><pa ram>0000,0000,0= 000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>Dave = Dalton</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>----- Original Message = -----</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>From: David B. Widen = <<dwiden@ho*.co*></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>To: <<donburke56@ne*.ne*>; 'Paul = Braunbehrens' = <<Bakalite@ba*.co*>;</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</par am> = <italic></italic></color><italic><<techdiver@aquanaut.com>< /italic><color>= <param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 2:53 = PM</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>Subject: RE: rec = trimix</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = Don</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>></italic><color><param>00 00,0000,0000</p= aram> <italic></italic></color><italic>> Good thought. It will be hell to get = the rec agency to support.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> I ran some of the numbers through = Deco Planner and some other</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>calculations.</italic><color> <param>0000,= 0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>></italic><color><param>00 00,0000,0000</p= aram> <italic></italic></color><italic>> To more closely track air and without = penalties a 21x24 works with END = of</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>80</italic><color><param>0 000,0000,0000</= param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> IAW DecoPlanner and END of 90 if you = calc with N2 & O2 as narcotic = gases.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> Without building the whole tables = w/SIT and repet groups. There = are</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>several</italic><color><pa ram>0000,0000,0= 000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> general mixes that would work well. = The Normoxic value would serve = the</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> uninformed or hard headed person who = exceeds 130. It would also = support</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>and</italic><color><param> 0000,0000,0000<= /param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> assist in the transistion of new = divers to this type of dive gas and = idea.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>></italic><color><param>00 00,0000,0000</p= aram> <italic></italic></color><italic>> Type Cost: 21x24 $.215/cuft 21x30 = $.252/cuft</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> AL80 21x24 ~$17 21x30 = ~$20</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> ST95 21x24 ~$21 21x30 = ~$24</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>></italic><color><param>00 00,0000,0000</p= aram> <italic></italic></color><italic>> Cost increase 3 to 5 times without = over fills.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>></italic><color><param>00 00,0000,0000</p= aram> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = David</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>></italic><color><param>00 00,0000,0000</p= aram> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > -----Original = Message-----</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > From: Don Burke = [mailto:donburke56@ya*.co*]</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</pa ram>= <italic></italic></color><italic>> > Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 7:56 = AM</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > To: Paul Braunbehrens; = techdiver@aquanaut.com</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > Subject: Re:rec = trimix</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > Comments scattered = within</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > --- Paul Braunbehrens = <<Bakalite@ba*.co*> = wrote:</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > I think that this is where trimix = computers come in.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > Even if it's = a</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > good "drop in" gas, I'd still = like to track what I'm</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > really = using.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > Certainly. It isn't rocket science = in any case. I</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > haven't worked out _every_ = possibility so the He</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > content may have to be backed off a = couple of points</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > to stay inside the air = tables.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > A set of rec-tri tables wouldn't = seem to be too hard</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > to make up for repetitive diving, = although PADI would</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > probably have to actually come up = with a new set of</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > surface interval numbers to allow = for He instead of</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > the Xerox solution used for the = surface intervals on</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > the PADI EAN = tables.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > Also, because of O2 Tox there = would have to be some</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > kind of = an</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > "orientation class" at the least. = If you go down to</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > 160 on air = and</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > come back up right away you're = stupid, but you won't</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > tox on O2. = A</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > "drop in" gas would need some = serious warning if it</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > has a higher = O2</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > = content.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > Yeah, the orientation would = be:</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > "Remember when I told you to stay = shallower than 130?</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > Well this time I mean = it."</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > You didn't mention the CNS clock, = but since we are on</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > the subject of O2, I haven't = figured out a way to run</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > out the clock with 28% O2 without = going well into deco</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > stop diving or going below 130. I = doubt there is one.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > Don Burke = wrote:</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > = ~</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > >As variation on the same theme, = how about 28/35 as</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > a "drop-in" replacement for = air?</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > >It is good to 130 feet under any = conditions a rec</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > diver will = see.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > >The no stop times are longer = than for air.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > >The END at 130 feet is about 80 = feet.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > >The only downside is = cost.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > >Don = Burke</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > >Chesapeake, = Virginia</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > > = ></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> = <italic></italic></color><italic>></italic><color><param>00 00,0000,0000</p= aram> <italic></italic></color><italic>> = --</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> <italic></italic></color><italic>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing = list to = `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</para m> <italic></italic></color><italic>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests = to = `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000& lt;/pa= ram> = <italic></italic></color><italic>></italic><color><param>00 00,0000,0000</p= aram> = <italic></italic></color><italic>--</italic><color><param>0 000,0000,0000</= param> <italic></italic></color><italic>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing = list to = `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</para m> <italic></italic></color><italic>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to = `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000& lt;/pa= ram> --Apple-Mail-286353236-3-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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