I have dove in current a bit and in a wreck (once).  It doesn't seem
ridiculous to
think about having to take off your gear as a last resort to get unstuck,
and not being absolutely pinned to the ceiling during the process would be
nice.

Also, when I'm diving my single tank on a backplate, I really can't even
reach either of my H-valve handles without undoing the waist strap and
pulling the rig halfway over my head.

As far as not going into any holes where my gear might get caught up, well,
I think I'd classify any wreck as such a hole.

Really, I'm just trying to get a consensus on weight belts and DIR, but it
still seems unclear.  I think I am going to go with a 12 pounder and P/V
weights for the rest.  The 20 pounder is killing my back, that's for sure.

Cam

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ma*.ci*.co*>
To: "Techdiver Mailing List" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: Weights


> Fighting invisible dragons is a common problem with divers from what I've
> seen. Preparing for all sorts of horrible scenarios means loading more and
> more and more ridiculous gear all over you which ultimately become the
> source of the problem.
>
> If you have ever been inside a wreck or if you have ever dove in any
current
> you would realize how ridiculous the thought of doffing your gear is. If
> getting out of your gear is part of the plan, for example those nuts who
> explore the inside of deep U-boats, then by all means use weightbelts etc.
>
> But 99% of your diving will not involve taking off your rig so why plan
for
> that 1% when there are so many other alternatives available? For example
> don't go into any holes where your gear might get caught up. Quite a
> concept, eh?
>
>    Jim
>  -------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>
> > From: "Cam Banks" <cam@ca*.co*>
> > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:56:45 -0700
> > To: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>, "dmdalton" <dmdalton@qu*.ne*>
> > Cc: "Techdiver Mailing List" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Subject: Re: Weights
> >
> > I could easily imagine getting tangled on something you could not cut in
a
> > wreck (cable, thick net, whatever), and having to take off your gear to
> > disentangle.  Is this just my overactive imagination, or is it a valid
> > scenario?  Not just an academic question, as I plan to be doing a lot of
> > wreck diving in my dive career.
> >
> > Cam
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
> > To: "Cam Banks" <cam@ca*.co*>; "dmdalton" <dmdalton@qu*.ne*>;
> > "Steve" <se2schul@uw*.ca*>; "John McMillan"
<mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> > Cc: "Techdiver Mailing List" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 3:07 AM
> > Subject: Re: Weights
> >
> >
> >> I don't take off my gear. But, you need to be able to stay down with
> > little
> >> or no gas, as in an emergency , and you need to be able to get up by
> >> dropping something. You guys figure it out. Also, for boat diving, you
do
> >> not want some massive overweighing on the gear so that if you take it
off
> > to
> >> get into the boat,  and there is some problem you will not lose it.
Also,
> >> you do not want some huge heavy rig while walking around on a boat at
> > sea -
> >> too stupid.
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cam Banks <cam@ca*.co*>
> >> To: dmdalton <dmdalton@qu*.ne*>; Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>;
John
> >> McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> >> Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >> Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 4:17 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Weights
> >>
> >>
> >>> I think I went through this with George a while ago, and the net
effect
> > of
> >>> his answer was that you need to be able to take off your gear without
> > being
> >>> ridiculously buoyant.  So, I'm shooting for about a 12-lb weightbelt
as a
> >>> compromise between the least weight on my waist possible and not being
> > able
> >>> to take off my gear.
> >>>
> >>> Of course, the dangers of "george said this" are manifold, but that's
at
> >>> least how I recall it.  Basically, you also need to be wearing enough
> >> weight
> >>> to offset the buoyancy you will gain as you consume your gas, wherever
> > you
> >>> put it.
> >>>
> >>> Cam
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "dmdalton" <dmdalton@qu*.ne*>
> >>> To: "Steve" <se2schul@uw*.ca*>; "John McMillan"
> >>> <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> >>> Cc: "Techdiver Mailing List" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 9:19 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: Weights
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Couple of thoughts on this issue:
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are going to say you must be in a neutral state without you
gear
> >> on
> >>>> (just you and your exposure suit) they you must figure what you need
to
> >>>> offset your exposure suit - consequently it can't be just a 6# weight
> >>> belt.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are diving trilaminate your buoyancy factor is consistent from
> > the
> >>>> surface to whatever depth you are going to dive - assuming you dive
it
> >>> right
> >>>> and only add enough gas to take the pinch off. With this suit you
will
> >>> need
> >>>> 16-30# based on your undergarments and your size. A 6# belt would not
> >>> offer
> >>>> much help in keeping you balanced without your other gear.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are diving a neoprene drysuit or a wet suit, you will NEVER
have
> > a
> >>>> balanced situation except at one depth. If you are neutral at  the
> >> surface
> >>>> with a 20# belt you will be negative 10# at 33fsw. Not exactly
> >> "balanced".
> >>>>
> >>>> The definition of "balanced" that I understand (and utilize) is that
> > your
> >>>> gear (with tanks between 0 & 500 psi) allow you to be neutral with no
> > air
> >>> in
> >>>> your wings/BC at 10-20 ft. That way the only excess weight your
> > wings/BC
> >>> has
> >>>> to provide lift for is the weight of the air in your tanks at the
start
> >> of
> >>>
> >>>> your dive, allowing you to dive smaller (=less drag) wings) (assuming
> > you
> >>>> dive trilaminate).
> >>>>
> >>>> Use your head.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dave
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> >>>> To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> >>>> Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 11:30 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: Weights
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi John,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I honestly can't think of a situation that would require you to take
> >> off
> >>>> all
> >>>>> your gear underwater besides getting stuck in a restriction so small
> >>> that
> >>>>> you shouldn't have been diving it anyway.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think that the chances of getting into a situation needing full
> > gear
> >>>>> removal is so slight that it doesn't warrant a weight belt.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Weight belts do have their place in diving, I still use mine quite
> >>>>> frequently depending on the setup I'm using, I just never dive it
> > with
> >>>> more
> >>>>> than 6 lbs now.  Even getting rid of those 6 lbs makes a huge
> >> difference
> >>>> for
> >>>>> comfort.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So John, what likely scenarios require you to take all your gear
off?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steve
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> >>>>> To: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> >>>>> Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:05 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Weights
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> "Gi Day" Steve.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Steve you said it in your last comment "WEAR A BALANCED RIG".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If and WHEN the shit hits the fan and the diver has no choice but
> > to
> >>> get
> >>>>> out
> >>>>>> of his gear.
> >>>>>> If the diver independent of his rig is balanced, the task loading
> > in
> >> a
> >>>>>> highly stressed situation will be significantly reduced.
> >>>>>> If you need to add weight to your rig to achieve this balance then
> > do
> >>>> so,
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>> P/V weight in this case would be practical.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The guys that don't take their gear off under water if its the only
> >>> way
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> fix the problem DIE.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I also hate wearing a weight belt, however it doesn't have to be
> > too
> >>>> heavy
> >>>>>> as it is only adjusting the buoyancy of the diver not the Diver and
> >>> the
> >>>>> rig.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hoo Roo
> >>>>>> Johnny Mack
> >>>>>> Down Under.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> >>>>>> To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>; Techdiver Mailing
> > List
> >>>>>> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:48 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Weights
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Since when does a P/V weight constitute weights "all over the
> > place
> >>>> "???
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Why is a weight belt more effective?  Why are you taking your
> > gear
> >>> off
> >>>>>>> underwater?
> >>>>>>> Think about this... Pressed Steel 104s + Drysuit + SS backplate =
> >> no
> >>>>>>> additional weight!
> >>>>>>> What do those guys do when they take off their gear underwater?
> >>> They
> >>>>>> don't.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Comfort-wise, I hate weight belts with a passion.  Getting rid of
> >> it
> >>>>> will
> >>>>>>> provide more comfort, less wear on your exposure suit, and better
> >>>>> airflow
> >>>>>>> through your drysuit.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Getting up off the bottom is easy... dive a balanced rig.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> steve
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> >>>>>>> To: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:30 AM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Weights
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I read a lot of crap in the many posts that have been presented
> >>> over
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> last few days regarding weighting. Most of the suggestions have
> >>> been
> >>>>>> down
> >>>>>>>> right bloody dangerous, stupid, and idiotic. Hey guys what
> >>> happened
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>>> keeping it simple. We should weight ourselves with out tanks
> >>> harness
> >>>>> etc
> >>>>>>>> attached, just negative. if we are still negative with the
> > tanks
> >>> and
> >>>>>>> harness
> >>>>>>>> etc on then we are correctly weighted. Using the traditional
> >>> weight
> >>>>> belt
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> the most effective way of doing this. Have a bloody good think
> >>> about
> >>>>> why
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>> should be weighted this way before you make any comments. The
> >> guys
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>> want
> >>>>>>>> to wear tank weights etc all over the place have a think about
> >>>>> buoyancy
> >>>>>>>> control if you have to take your gear off in water at depth. If
> >>> and
> >>>>> when
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> shit hits the fan and you have to do this with weights all over
> >>> your
> >>>>>> gear
> >>>>>>>> "good luck".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hoo Roo
> >>>>>>>> Johnny Mack
> >>>>>>>> Down Under
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>> From: John Walker <techdive@ea*.ne*>
> >>>>>>>> To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:11 AM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Weights
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hell Cobber they give me a sore back.  I'd bet Mike Black
> >>> (you
> >>>>>> know,
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> guy that doesn't dive) would consider this a Type 2 DCS hit.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Dr. John Walker
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>> From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ma*.ci*.co*>
> >>>>>>>>> To: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>; Paul Braunbehrens
> >>>>>>>>> <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> >>>>>>>>> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:02 AM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Weights
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Weight belt for wetsuits. Weight belt fucks up the airflow
> > in
> >>>> your
> >>>>>>>> drysuit
> >>>>>>>>>> and is a failure point. I hate weight belts.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Jim
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:24:40 -0400
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Weights
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I dont mean to flame Paul personally but I have to ask
> > some
> >>>>> simple
> >>>>>>>>> questions
> >>>>>>>>>>> here.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Why is the weight belt not ideal? its cheap, easy to
> > learn,
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>> found
> >>>>>>>>>>> everywhere.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The belt gives you a built in failure indicator< if you
> > are
> >>>>> paying
> >>>>>>>>> attnetion
> >>>>>>>>>>> you can feel it slip, and thats easy to correct on your
> >> own>
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>>>>>> under you crotch stap has a built in anti ditch safety.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> and also
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> what is the facination with non ditchable weight?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> especially on a rig that is limited to no stop diving by
> >>>>>>> definition??
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I can understand its significance on a deco dive, but you
> >>> all
> >>>> do
> >>>>>>>> realize
> >>>>>>>>>>> that if your worst fears come true and you undergo a
> >> buoyant
> >>>>>> ascent
> >>>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>>>> are merely performing skills practice?? That evey agency
> >> has
> >>>>> blow
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> go
> >>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>> its last resort for ndl diving?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> have any of you removed your weights during a dive? what
> >> was
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> result?
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> had my belt off three times in front of the class i was
> >>>> helping
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>> tonite,
> >>>>>>>>>>> no problem with an al 80 with an al plate and a 1/4 suit
> >> in
> >>>> 12
> >>>>> ft
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> water,
> >>>>>>>>>>> i had plenty of time to dump the bc and remain with my
> >>> weight
> >>>>> belt
> >>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>>>> a little effort. Are we all just not paying attention?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> worried about buckle failure? wear two.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> We are not even going to get into the pony bottle, but
> > fyi
> >>> my
> >>>>>>>>> understanding
> >>>>>>>>>>> of hogarthian means ultra minimal as in no reserve gas,
> >> even
> >>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> overhead.
> >>>>>>>>>>> and of course the bottle is unnecessary for anything, you
> >>> can
> >>>>>> either
> >>>>>>>>> blow
> >>>>>>>>>>> and go or you cant and if you cant you need a real
> >> redundant
> >>>>>> system,
> >>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>> 13
> >>>>>>>>>>> freaking cu ft. This w/e i was forced to dive off the bow
> >>> b/c
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> customers
> >>>>>>>>>>> used up all the rack space with their pony bottles filled
> >>> with
> >>>>>>> nitrox
> >>>>>>>>> too
> >>>>>>>>>>> hot for the bottom< typical, they have all been hosed and
> >>>> regard
> >>>>>> dir
> >>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>> internet bs>and then i had to endure the shop owners
> >>> bitching
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>>>> doubles being too much gear for the dives< which they
> > were,
> >>>> but
> >>>>> i
> >>>>>>>> needed
> >>>>>>>>>>> them empty and gas costs money so i aint freaking wasting
> >>>> it>so
> >>>>> i
> >>>>>> am
> >>>>>>>>> ready
> >>>>>>>>>>> for all comers on this pony bullshit.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You dont need a pony bottle unless you are solo diving
> >>> without
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>> plan.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Think it through people.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Al Marvelli
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> PS if those two quarry guys dont send me snail addresses
> >> ill
> >>>>> never
> >>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>> able
> >>>>>>>>>>> to mail them schedules and since i lost my inbox i dont
> >>>>> havetheir
> >>>>>> e
> >>>>>>>>>>> addresses, so get back to me fellas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> OK, I went through tons of archives last night, trying
> > to
> >>> get
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> bottom of this.  First, let me tell you my setup.  I'm
> >>> diving
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> backplate and wings, with a drysuit, and (for now) a
> >> single
> >>>>> tank
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a pony bottle.  Leaving enough air in my suit so I can
> >>> still
> >>>>> move
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> do a safety stop at the end of a dive, I need 17 pounds
> > on
> >>> my
> >>>>>> belt
> >>>>>>> (I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> dive in cold water).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Right now this weight is on my weight belt, which is ok
> >> but
> >>>> not
> >>>>>>>> ideal.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perusing the archives, it seems the consensus is to make
> > a
> >>> V
> >>>>>> weight
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for at least some of this.  Let's say it will weigh
> > about
> >> 9
> >>>>>> Pounds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> This still leaves 8 pounds.  I could then either leave
> >> that
> >>>> on
> >>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>>>>> weight belt, or I could put it in the Halcyon weight
> >>> pouches.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> assume that when I go to doubles I won't need most of it
> >>>>> anymore?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, DiveRite sells a "trim weight" that will fit
> > between
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> bolts
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on the backplate.  I was thinking of this as an option.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I read a lot of posts saying the canister light is
> > 6
> >>>>> pounds
> >>>>>>>>>>>> negative (or thereabouts).  Mine is 1.5 pounds negative,
> >>>> which
> >>>>>>> means
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have to account for that weight somewhere.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> One post I read which made a lot of sense, said that you
> >>>> should
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about 5 or 6 pounds of ditchable weight (if any).  When
> >> you
> >>>>> ditch
> >>>>>>>>>>>> your weight you don't want to become so positive as to
> > end
> >>> up
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lunar orbit.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to get as close to hogarthian as possible
> >>> before
> >>>>>>> moving
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to doubles, so any help is appreciated.  I'm even moving
> >> my
> >>>>>>> canister
> >>>>>>>>>>>> back on my harness (I had it upside down and attached to
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> backplate, but I find that it has a tendency to sit on
> > the
> >>>>> wiring
> >>>>>>>>>>>> connection...not good).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Paul Braunbehrens mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.daw-mac.com Mailing list for digital audio on
> >>> the
> >>>>> mac
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> >>>>>>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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> >>>>>>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
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> >>>>>>>>>>
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