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I don't know how affordable this is but the 1ATM suit is supposedly in testing. From Immersed Vol 5 No 1 page 35 "1 Atm Suit. No decompression stops are needed, even in dives to 600 feet / 180 meters, if you're wearing a 1 atmosphere suit. In beta testing now at Nuytco Research Ltd., North Vancouver, Canada, is the swimmable Exosuit. At 160 pounds / 72 kilograms with scrubber, it's about as heavy as a ful tech diving load. It's all neutrally bouyant underwater, of course." Pictures are on their web site: http://www.nuytco.com/exosuit.html -ben --- Thomas McDonald <tmcdonal@sw*.ne*> wrote: > Okay, this thought process can go around and around > indefinitely, when talking > about the "one day" scenarios. I too like the idea > of a dive computer reliably > getting me out of the water faster based on the > actual dive over a PC based > program where the dive was planned. This doesn't > contradict "Plan your dive and > dive your plan". On a PC, I can plan on it taking > me 3 minutes to reach depth, > but when you get out to the site, it actually takes > 4 minutes, or 2, or whatever. > Likewise when ascending, you leave the bottom 2 > minutes earlier or later, but you > decompress with basically the same profile you cut. > The deco can be easily > adjusted for more dramatic cases once you've > experimented with the plan, seeing > how the decompression shifts. > > Now if I understand correctly, the idea with your > (our) dream computer, is that it > will take into account every variance in your actual > dive, and adjust your deco > appropriately and thereby getting you out of the > water faster. Just as the > recreational dive computers do within NDL as opposed > to NDL tables. Agreed? And > can we also agree that this computer doesn't exist > today? > > And that's the rub. If this item doesn't exist, > that we can dream all we want, > but it's a moot argument. Immersed magazine > recently ran an article about a pill > that would assist or eliminate decompression with a > bacteria that "eats" nitrogen, > but this doesn't exist yet. Some company has > created what they call a "swimable" > JIM suit. So let's extend the "technology isn't > here yet" argument to these as > well. > > Wouldn't it be nice to have an affordable 1 atm suit > that allowed great mobility > for exploration, but required no decompression? Or > how about the development of > the above pills, so a decompression emergency could > be avoided this easily? > Although it may not come across this way, I'm truly > not being sarcastic here. > It's just too easy to dream about what would be > great "some day". > > In reading the archives, you'll find examples of GI > moving from one type of > regulator to another, or even valves for his tanks. > These are examples that come > off the top of my head, but I'm sure these lots more > throughout the evolution of > his rig. As improvements are created / discovered, > they can be incorporated. > This isn't a static evolution. > > There also needs to take into account what I'll call > the "lawyer factor". Dive > computers are purposely designed to be more > conservative that necessary, because > they tend to encourage diving by what the display > says, rather than a proper > plan. The Cochrans you mention are some of the > worst offenders of this. In > looking into a trip to Bikini, the local divemaster > gives a list of non-acceptable > computers ( http://www.rreinc.com/fabioletter.html > ). There's a dead link in > this description that used to describe how 100% of > the Cochran computers that > customers brought have failed, giving outrageous > deco times like 99 hours or > displaying no information. However, when the > divemaster brought this to Cochran's > attention, they responded in a pretty weak (IMO) way > stating that the computers > were working correctly, and it was the customer's > fault for using it incorrectly: > http://www.rreinc.com/fabioletter.html . > > I read and ignored the first couple of your > responses, but you won't let this > die. I absolutely love my Uwatec Air-X Nitrox for > *recreational* diving. In some > of the black water around here, I wear a compass on > one wrist and the computer > right next to it. It's great having depth, time, > pressure, and direction in one > easy to read area. At one time I owned an Oceanic > DataTrans, and liked it until I > started taking some technical classes. I took it on > some deeper dives (160ft) and > one time it kept me in the water 20 minutes longer > than Navy tables! Another, it > crapped out completely, and on three times the air > integration didn't work (ran a > SPG off the other post thank god). > > If I could have my dream device, I would go with a > computer that uses the actual > Deco Planner Abyss or software (they tried to > incorporate RGBM into the Explorer, > but couldn't get it functional, and started > production omitting RGBM), was backlit > (no matter how bad of vis, on that Oceanic, I could > push a button, stick it > against my mask and read the [incorrect] numbers it > was giving me), and I could > switch to gauge mode at any time without a lockout > period. As long as I'm > dreaming, might as well throw in a built in compass > and air integrated (I know I'm > in the minority here, but it's nice when it's > working). Maybe a sonar receiver > too? Okay, now I am being sarcastic. Since this > doesn't exist, why argue the > merits of it? > > As you may guess from the above I'm not a DIR diver, > and I'm not going to get into > where I differ, but I try to stick with the tenant > of "if it's not necessary, > don't bring it." A perfect example is with me > liking the air integration, but not > using it on decompression dives. If I keep one SPG > off my left post, I really > don't think the transmitter off my right post makes > any difference or is a > liability. However, I do have to carry around the > computer that receives the > signal in addition to a bottom timer. When I bend > the hell out of the computer by > following a predetermined plan with gas changeovers, > then the computer has become > a liability and the air integration doesn't offset > that. Give me Uwatec's bottom > timer with air integration built in, and I'd use it. > > Finally, I agree with you that people shouldn't > blindly accept as good or bad > because an individual says so, as that's where true > learning and understanding > come in. Similarly, you can study deco theory all > you want. However, nothing > will do more for your understanding than planning > many dives in advance and > playing with how more minutes here and there, > differences in depth, and different > gases affect deco. Then go out and execute those > dives. While you and I want > this dream dive computer, I'd want people to have it > with having a good > understanding of deco theory. If / when the > technology is available to create > this device, the *need* to learn that information > will be gone. > > If this working "dream" product ever came out, > there's those who would never want > switch from cutting tables for each dive. When BC > inflators first came out, > everyone thought it was a waste of gas (why put air > into the BC when you can > exhale into it?). I'd recommend anyone to try this > at least one on a dive to see > how any "savings" in exhaling is offset by the near > hyperventilation that's > required to fill a BC. > > Improvements in diving technology have brought us > extremely far in a few decades > and there's going to be some amazing things headed > our way in the decades to > come. While it's fun to speculate on what that > future holds, can we stop beating > this subject to death for now? Current dive > computers can't take me where I want > to go and get me out of deco faster than planning on > a PC and following that > profile. Someday, maybe. Until then, let it go. > > -Tom > > > ScottBonis@ao*.co* wrote: > > > Hi Simon, > > > > Thanks for the response, I appreciate the > thoughts. > > > > << So now you need two Deco computers and a host > of remote sensors AND a PC + > > Deco software to cut your backup tables which you > then keep in your pocket. > > Sounds like a very expensive disaster waiting to > happen. >> > > > > I'm afraid that you're absolutely right in that > what I've been talking about > > would certainly require two hoseless computers > with sensors. And a PC and > > deco software would certainly be nice for > planning, gas usage and generalized > > conservative backup tables. So I guess your > statement about being expensive > > is clearly valid. However the assertion about > being a "disaster waiting to > > happen" is not clear to me. Could you possibly be > a little more specific? > > > > << Do you honestly believe that after relying on > the Deco computers, you will > > be able to > > > > figure out a deco schedule in your head if/when > the s**t hits the fan ? >> > > > > I can honestly answer this question with a > resounding "Of course." I believe > > the best analogy I have here is for recreational > no-deco diving. I like to > > believe that I have a pretty solid familiarity > with the no-deco tables, yet > > for the last five or seven years I don't believe I > have made one single dive > > without a dive computer. The quest for knowledge > is something quite > > personal, and is not necessarily driven by simple > expediency. > > > > << The DIR guys have been through all this before > and distilled it into a > > system that > > > > actually let you relax and have fun doing deep, > long dives. Why dont you try > > it ? > > > > Simon Murray > > > > South Africa >> > > > > I respect (and am really impressed) by the > accomplishments of George, JJ and > > the rest of the team. They have developed a > system for the type of diving > > they do and it clearly works. But that is not to > say that as time and > > technology progresses, we are to ignore all of the > developments that are > > forthcoming. > > > > I studied deep diving a number of years ago and am > now teaching trimix and > > cave. All of my training and experience was with > Uwatec depth gauges / > > bottom timers and (before I had a PC and deco > software) the waterproof IANTD > > trimix multiple deco tables. Now I can cut deco > and backup tables more > > specific to each dive and so get out of the water > sooner. My deeper dives > > this winter were below 400 ft. So I really > believe that I have tried that > > system. And I am still interested in exploring > alternative techniques for > > making deep diving safer and easier. And I > believe that in the future, as > > the construction of and algorithms contained in > wrist computers gain maturity > > e.g. incorporate deep stops, oxygen breaks, better > reliability, etc., wrist > > computers well may become useful for deep diving. > > > > Once again, thanks a lot for the comments. > There's no substitute for talking > > to those that have "walked the walk," so to speak. > > > > Take care and safe diving, Scott > > > > In a message dated 6/12/00 11:03:37 PM, > simonm@ho*.co*.za* writes: > > << > These are good questions to talk about. In > an earlier post I suggested > > that > > > > > it might be wise to mount the two air integrated > computers on different > > posts > > > > > so I imagine if there were a failure in the > primary gas supply such that one > > > > > side needed to be shut down and the isolator > closed, I would simply use the > > > > > computer that was on the good post (the one I'd > be breathing) to finish the > > > > > dive. > > > > So now you need two Deco computers and a host of > remote sensors AND a PC + > > Deco software > > > > to cut your backup tables which you then keep in > your pocket. Sounds like a > > very > > > > expensive disaster waiting to happen. > > > > Do you honestly believe that after relying on the > Deco computers, you will be > > able to > > > > figure out a deco schedule in your head if/when > the s**t hits the fan ? > > > > The DIR guys have been through all this before and > distilled it into a system > > that > > > > actually let you relax and have fun doing deep, > long dives. Why dont you try > > it ? > > > > Simon Murray > > > > South Africa > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*> > > > > To: <artg@ec*.ne*>; <donburke56@ya*.co*>; > <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 5:11 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Oxygen Toxicity - using 100% in open > water > > > > > In a message dated 6/12/00 5:06:42 AM, > artg@ec*.ne* writes: > > > > > > > > > > << On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 ScottBonis@ao*.co* wrote: > > > > > > "How does the computer know when to switch to > the deco. gasses?" you ask. > > > > > > Good question. Magic!!! No not really, the > computer is an air integrated > > > > > > unit connected to the back tanks. It keeps > track of my breathing rate > > > > > during > > > > > > the dive. And when that breathing rate goes > to zero, it knows that I am > > no > > > > > > longer breathing off of the back tanks so it > switches to the first deco. > > > > > gas > > > > > > (the EAN 50 in this example). > > > > > > > > > > Great. What if your primary gas supply fails, > and you're in a gas sharing > > > > > situation? Or you're diving doubles, and you > have to shut down the > > > > > isolator and you're breathing off the post the > computer is not on? Now the > > > > > computer thinks its time to switch gasses. > Ooops. >> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Art, > > > > > > > > > > These are good questions to talk about. In an > earlier post I suggested that > > > > > it might be wise to mount the two air integrated > computers on different > > posts > > > > > so I imagine if there were a failure in the > primary gas supply such that one > > > > > side needed to be shut down and the isolator > closed, I would simply use the > > > > > computer that was on the good post (the one I'd > be breathing) to finish the > > > > > dive. If there were a total failure of the > primary gas supply (requiring at > > > > > least two independent failures) such that buddy > gas sharing was required (I > > > > > shudder to think of this happening on a deep > dive), then as you indicated > > > > > both computers would switch to deco gas. But if > either of these primary gas > > > > > system failures were to occur, then the dive > would be called immediately and > > > > > I (or I and my buddy together) would ascend > immediately, switch to the deco > > > > > gas and finish the dive. The only computer > error would be the computer > > > > > thinking I was on deco gas for the few minutes > ascending while buddy > > > > > breathing. And the backup waterproof tables, > using the computers as depth > > > > > gauges / bottom timers, could always be used to > figure a new deco schedule > > if > > > > > needed. > > > > > > > > > > << IMO, any dive that calls for switching gasses > is more along the lines of > > a > > > > > "heavy deco" (your terminology) dive, where > planning, including > > > > > contingencies, is required before entering the > water. Diving by computer > > > > > is contraindicated for such dives. > > > > > -- > > > > > Art Greenberg > > > > > artg@ec*.ne* >> > > > > > > > > > > This, of course, is your opinion and I respect > that. Remember please that I > > > > > am definitely not suggesting doing extended deco > dives at this time using > > > > > only wrist computers and without having done the > proper planning. But I > > need > > > > > to emphasize again that although I personally > don't recommend it, IMHO, the > > > > > reasons that have been given for not using wrist > computers simply do not > > seem > > > > > to hold up under careful scrutiny. > > > > > > > > > > Art, thanks a lot, really, for your comments. I > do appreciate the > > > > > opportunity to discuss this stuff and get some > of the questions and concerns > > > > > out in the open. > > > > > > > > > > You take care now and safe diving, Scott >> > > > > -- > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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