Dear Fellows,

1- I am sure the behavior of most people in this list is not so good for
the diving community's health in the world.

2- It could be more productive if most of you considered themselves as
"experts" in diving, came to this and other lists, and bring to the
community good concerns, lessons, experiences and words of winsdon,
instead staying fighting each other, exposing their insatisfactions,
psycologic disturbs as well as the "Hollywood Syndrome".

3- I would like to say that, here in Brazil and in other countries that
I have visited, the opinion of the majority is that this list is a big
manifestation of psycologic disturbs and most of the people that have
been "discussing" here do not represent the real and healthy mental
divers in the USA.

4- I would like to ask a simple question : Did you guys have seem the
great names of our planet, stupidly exposing their concerns and
thoughts  in public with the primary objective of to create noises and
show up their EGO ? I guess no. Why not ? Think about that.

5- As the history has comproved, this kind of behavior and manifestation
just contribute to generate more instatisfation and cause a very poor
image of the most professionals in the world.

6- For those that have been defending with nail and tooth a determinate
configuration, philosophy and etc.. Think about that in the history of
our humanity there was not a single and unique TRUE.

7- Also, one of the many attributes of a good educator is just show the
"material" to the students and act as an true educator.

8- I think if the behavior of most the people here was changed,and was
more effective, the diving community in the world probably will feel
better, learn much more under a very professional and human environment.

9- If people here feel that acting this way will show experience,
knowledge and will become well known in the world, then know that it is
the opposite, because people have been making funny jokes about most
people in this list as well as have been creating a terrible image of
them as well as about some agencies and groups.

10- I think the representatives of significant groups and agencies, 
should be careful about the consequences and results of this behavior in
the diving community and the diving industry.

I think instead of you guys, continuing to be not productive, and
generating poor discussion of who has the bigger....... think about take
a deep breath, make a consistent reflection and came to this list
bringing health contributions to our diving community.

It is not also good for a people that belongs to the "First World" to
destroy and dirty this cultural and financial image.

Finally, I would like to apologize for any discomfort that I could cause
in some people as well as for my poor english, because it is not our
primary language. 

I wish all the best in the 2000 for all people in the list and hope this
situation can be modified in the future with the objective to gratify
the diving community.

Thank you very much for spend your precious time in reading this
message,

José Carlos "Zeca" dos Santos

São Paulo - Brazil

BTW: If anyone intent to reply this message with the spirit of fight,
please abstain that.





Tom Mount wrote:
> 
> Hi George
> 
> I thought in private email you asked that we discontinue the discussion and
> I agreed to do so. now you wish to start it up again?
> 
> Lets see George, you became cave certified in 1991, just a few months before
> Parkers
> death,  per NACD records, (anyone wishing to check this out may do so by
> contacting NACD) So that is nine years ago which i one could
> say is approximately 10 years since you and JJ first met. I think you dived
> as support diver for Parker up until or near his death a few minths later,
> as you were still gaining experience in cave diving at that time.  Then for
> quite sometime you dived as a buddy with Bill Gavin and other orginal WKPP
> members, on exploration dives and later on teamed up with JJ as a buddy for
> exploration diving. JJ meanwhile had been doing exploration for quite
> sometime in Manattee and other places.
> 
> I was not even going to answer JJ's post,  except in a personal discussion
> to discuss some differences in approach within Hogarthian configurations
> that are practiced by many active members of
> the cave and technical diving community.
> 
> While I planned this as a private comunication it is a discussion that would
> be
> appropriate for this list if it could be allowed to happen with
> out a lot of name calling and other actions by you and a few others, to
> prevent actual discussion by people who have every right to feel their
> configuration is equally as safe as yours and people who may not dive huge
> Tally power caves but who do dive challenging caves that can be every
> much as a dive to the other side of hell as what you do. Also OW and wreck
>  as this is techdiver not cavers)
> dives and some things that may be safer and why they are safer and why some
> have evolved to those particular modifications.
> 
> Are you game to DISCUSS (actually communicate with each other quietly
> and logically rather than yelling screaming and name calling). these issue
> if so lets do so if not lets do what you in your suggested and drop this
> discussion
> 
> If you believe in DIR as much as you state you do and I think you do then
> you should welcome an open discussion on other configurations as it would
> provide a logical progression to show how DIR differs from other Hogarthian
> or general configurations.
> 
> Anyway if you would like to have this discussion then lets do it if not
> then lets do as we agreed  per your request and drop the issue. It would be
> quite time consuming for both of us and whoever else elects to contribute.
> But it would be an actual open discussion for all to participate,
> Who knows we may all gain from such a presentation of configuration issues.
> 
> George is there really 5000 tech instructors wow i certainly did not know
> that. who are they certified through?
> 
> For those on this list if you want to know what levels of experience and
> background are represented in the instructor ranks of all associations
> simply go to the web pages each agency has and see how many names you have
> heard of amoung these list and how much experience they have teaching and
> diving.
> 
> For the courses check out how intense the skill training is and make a
> logical choice (you can find the skill requirements in the standards of the
> various agencies). Many of you will select different agencies and some of
> you will do a some training with a variety of agencies. But the inforamtion
> you need to make these decisions is easily available to you.on the web
> pages. Also check with former students of instructors there are a lot of
> really excellent instructor out there not just one or two.
> 
> Respectfully yours,
> Tom Mount
> CEO IANTD World HQ
> http://www.iantd.com
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
> To: <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jarrod Jablonski <JJ@gu*.co*>
> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 12:22 PM
> Subject: Re: stroke tee shirt /dive girl mag
> 
> > Tom, is this what you meant by JJ "diagrees with me"? What is really
> > funny about this is that nobody but JJ , myself, and those on our team
> > who have seen the other side of hell understand any of this, but then
> > look who has the end of the line everywhere, look who always gets it
> > done with no exucuses, look at who the common denominator is in all of
> > this for the last ten years as others have come and gone ( as JJ points
> > out ), and ask yourself "Why?".
> >
> > Then , and I know this will really piss you (all ) off, my opinion is
> > that anyone who has not seen the other side of hell has NO BUSINESS
> > teaching it. That , my friend, does not leave much room for many of you
> > at the table, so to speak, certainly not the 5000 odd so called "tech"
> > insrtructors out there.
> >
> > JJ and I are of one mind on diving , and the reason is we know what is
> > out there and have done it together successfully for ten years where
> > NOBODY esle has been able to do jack shit, and there are no excuses for
> > that other than stroke, stroke, and more stroke, and actually, both of
> > us are grateful for that, and at the same time trying to change it.
> >
> > If Jablonsksi agreed with you or Gilliam on your "teachings", he would
> > not have started GUE, and if the rest of the world did not feel the same
> > way about much of it, he would have no customers, but the truth is you
> > will attract the Personal Preference crowd,  and we will get the elite.
> >
> >
> > Jarrod Jablonski wrote:
> > >
> > > Tom et al,
> > >I may not agree with all of G's politics or personality but then again >I
> have never met anyone with whom I did always agree. Yet when it comes >to
> being in the back of some cave at 300' politics just don't seem >relevant.
> >
> > >Best,
> > >JJ
> >
> > full texgt of JJ's comments below>
> >
> >
> >
> > > I thought that since several people seemed curious about  my opinion on
> > > this that there must be some confusion.
> > >
> > > I don't particularly understand why people choose some of the equipment
> > > configurations that I see in diving but I recognize that this will
> remain a
> > > fact of life. It does not really bother me but I do not want people to
> > > imagine that I don't believe there to be an easy and sensible way to
> > > configure equipment. Perhaps in my desire to be fair and professional
> about
> > > my convictions I failed to state them clearly. It seems self-evident to
> me
> > > that the Hogarthian style that we evolved into a more comprehensive DIR
> is
> > > the one that makes sense to me. I know George feels the same way and
> > > imagines that people should hear about this whether they want to or
> not<g>.
> > > Personally I think if people want my opinion they can listen to what I
> am
> > > saying, ask me questions, or read our web pages etc but I think that
> both
> > > of us do what seems right to us personally.
> > >
> > > I do know that there has been a huge resistance to some of our ideas and
> an
> > > allegiance to the status quo. For example, when I first started teaching
> > > most of my "mentors" were very careful to be sure that I understood how
> > > inappropriate it would be to indicate that there might be a preferred
> way
> > > to configure their equipment. None of that ever made any sense to me at
> > > all. There was and to some extent is still a fair degree of resistance
> to
> > > the DIR style. George has helped create an atmosphere where instructors
> can
> > > be challenged and where DIR has been heard. Much of this process has not
> > > been the way I would have proceeded. Maybe worse, maybe more effective.
> > > Maybe there is a need for both of our styles, maybe one, or maybe none.
> In
> > > the end it is for all of you to decide for yourself what you want and
> how
> > > you respond.  I do think that there is a lot of reforming to do in the
> > > world of diving and scuba education and hopefully some of these efforts
> > > will have an ultimately positive impact.
> > >
> > > George and I have been friends and diving partners for more than 10
> years
> > > and together we took the early ideas of Main and Gavin to what I feel
> was
> > > their natural conclusion. We have had our share of arguments and
> > > disagreements but they were personal and political and usually somewhat
> > > beside the point. We do not need to debate equipment or configuration
> > > because these tenets seem self-evident to both of us. Truth be told it
> is
> > > not rocket science. We could pretend there was some magic behind these
> > > decisions but then that defeats the purpose of DIR and what each of us
> is
> > > trying to accomplish- each in our own way. I may not agree with all of
> G's
> > > politics or personality but then again I have never met anyone with whom
> I
> > > did always agree. Yet when it comes to being in the back of some cave at
> > > 300' politics just don't seem relevant.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > JJ
> > >
> > > JJ states" "two things will undoubtedly remain constant there will
> always
> > > be new equipment for people to obsess over, and there will > always be
> > > people arguing over how that equipment should be configured Your >
> response
> > > to these arguments should be based on your actual needs, and on the
> > > requirements of your diving environment." Seems to me that JJ's
> statement
> > > agrees with most of us and is more in line with Bill Gavins "have an
> open
> > > mind and always seek perfection" in contrast to yours so where is the
> one
> > > mind bit? It would appear that JJ and Bill encourage people to think to
> be
> > > logical to try to improve them selves not blindly follow a hypocrite
> > >
> > > Jarrod Jablonski
> > >
> > > President-
> > > Global Underwater Explorers www.gue.com
> > > CEO Extreme Exposure www.extreme-exposure.com
> > > VP Halcyon Manufacturing www.halcyon.net, www.browniedive.com,
> www.tankfill.com
> > >
> > > Global Underwater Explorers www.gue.com
> > > GUE is a non-profit educational, research, and exploratory organization
> > > with hundreds of dedicated members around the world.
> > >
> > > Extreme Exposure www.extreme-exposure.com
> > > Extreme Exposure and Halcyon manufacturing produce some of the scuba
> > > industries most novel and robust diving equipment designed by many of
> > > diving's most active explorers.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> 
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