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I would have to agree with one point that was made here.

For the most part, but there are exceptions to every rule, it is the instructor
that matters the most, who makes or breaks the student.

I believe that there are quite a few factors that come into play regarding "the
quality of training"

1) If the the instructor is trained under inadequate standards and expected to
abide by those standards, resulting in behavior that is in question, I would say
that the agency is at fault or at least needs to re-evaluate their standards or
update them to excisting acceptable practices.

The instructor who just plain doesn't know any better can hardly be blamed. On
the other hand, isn't it prudent for the said instructor to be abreast of
current practices among his particular level of diving community? I think so.

So.....in that case, it would seem that the instructor could be liable for
inadequate performance and subjection to the abuse by the members of a list such
as this one! :)

Another point, and one that is fairly common, is that often time divers; (and
instructors) are "cross certified" through one or more agencies. If a diver is
cave certified by a NSS Cave instructor who is also an IANTD cave instructor,
and the student requests an IANTD cert., does this condemn him in the eyes of
other individuals/agencys/owners of certain dive sites? Does this make him/her a
crappy diver?

If Joe "God" Diver is NSS certified with 2000 cave dives and whips out his TDI
card, does he get shot down in flames?   (Just something else to consider)



Joe West wrote:

> Claudia,
>
> Since you brought my name up again, I might as well respond...
>
> > How did they pass the class without knowing how to use a set of tables?
> I actually explained the tables to my OWD instructor. No shit! He
> just couldn't do it. And told the students for the same reason that
> the first piece of equipment to buy was a computer. (Of course the
> ones he sold.)
> Reason for me not to buy one.
>
> You won't get any argument from me here... That is completely pathetic.
> If the instructor was PADI, he should have been reported to PADI... if for
> no
> other reason than to open their eyes.
>
> > However, this is also the fault of the people wanting to *try* diving.
> They
> > don't want a good, solid course, as this would cost a good deal of money,
> >$500 per head, + gear. People want to learn and get their C-card in
> > one weekend, for $99.00. Its a market, and its going to be addressed.
> And, they can be heavily overweight, can smoke during class, prior to
> and after dives (this is FACT, Joe), can have cardio problems. It's
> okay if they cannot even swim 400 yds, since (to quote an
> instroketor, who said the following 3 years ago standing 2 meters
> away from me) "that is even difficult for me"!!! This guy (no prove,
> but very likely) certified a diving challenged lady just because she
> owned a travel agency. He did that during a private OW session that
> might never have happened.
>
> Funny thing that smoking is brought up... I'm teaching a class in two weeks,
> and one student is a smoker.  I told her earlier today that she needed to
> quit before class started, and that if she didn't, I certainly wouldn't
> allow her to smoke during my classes.  As far as an instructor who can't
> swim 400 yards... I make it a point to do the swims with my students
> (granted; only 200 yards is required)... I, like many others on this list,
> believe in trying to stay in shape... which is why you'll find me in the gym
> at 5:30am 4 or 5 days a week.
> The examples you present are valid, and I've seen some PADI instructors who
> did worse... but I still maintain that it ultimately is the instructor who
> is responsible, and not the certifying agency.  I really believe that most
> of the recreational certification agencies have the policies and procedures
> in place to produce good, qualified, entry level, open water recreational
> divers... unfortunately as you say; there are too many bad instructors out
> there, and, by virtue of it's size; PADI has the lions share of them.
> Understand though, that there are instructors within PADI who do care about
> their students, who do produce adequately trained safe O/W divers.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joe West
> --
> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I would have to agree with one point that was made here.
<p>For the most part, but there are exceptions to every rule, it is the
instructor that matters the most, who makes or breaks the student.
<p>I believe that there are quite a few factors that come into play regarding
<i>"the quality of training"</i><i></i>
<p>1) If the the instructor is trained under inadequate standards and
expected
to abide by those standards, resulting in behavior that is in question,
I would say that the <b>agency </b>is at fault or at least needs to
re-evaluate
their standards or update them to excisting acceptable practices.
<p>The instructor who just plain doesn't know any better can hardly be
blamed. On the other hand, isn't it prudent for the said instructor to
be abreast of current practices among his particular level of diving community?
I think so.
<p>So.....in that case, it would seem that the instructor could be liable
for inadequate performance and subjection to the abuse by the members of
a list such as this one! :)
<p>Another point, and one that is fairly common, is that often time divers;
(and instructors) are "cross certified" through one or more agencies. If
a diver is cave certified by a NSS Cave instructor who is also an IANTD
cave instructor, and the student requests an IANTD cert., does this condemn
him in the eyes of other individuals/agencys/owners of certain dive sites?
Does this make him/her a crappy diver?
<p>If Joe "God" Diver is NSS certified with 2000 cave dives and whips out
his TDI card, does he get shot down in flames?   (Just something
else to consider)
<br> 
<br> 
<p>Joe West wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Claudia,
<p>Since you brought my name up again, I might as well respond...
<p>> How did they pass the class without knowing how to use a set of tables?
<br>I actually explained the tables to my OWD instructor. No shit! He
<br>just couldn't do it. And told the students for the same reason that
<br>the first piece of equipment to buy was a computer. (Of course the
<br>ones he sold.)
<br>Reason for me not to buy one.
<p>You won't get any argument from me here... That is completely pathetic.
<br>If the instructor was PADI, he should have been reported to PADI...
if for
<br>no
<br>other reason than to open their eyes.
<p>> However, this is also the fault of the people wanting to *try* diving.
<br>They
<br>> don't want a good, solid course, as this would cost a good deal of
money,
<br>>$500 per head, + gear. People want to learn and get their C-card in
<br>> one weekend, for $99.00. Its a market, and its going to be addressed.
<br>And, they can be heavily overweight, can smoke during class, prior
to
<br>and after dives (this is FACT, Joe), can have cardio problems. It's
<br>okay if they cannot even swim 400 yds, since (to quote an
<br>instroketor, who said the following 3 years ago standing 2 meters
<br>away from me) "that is even difficult for me"!!! This guy (no prove,
<br>but very likely) certified a diving challenged lady just because she
<br>owned a travel agency. He did that during a private OW session that
<br>might never have happened.
<p>Funny thing that smoking is brought up... I'm teaching a class in two
weeks,
<br>and one student is a smoker.  I told her earlier today that she
needed to
<br>quit before class started, and that if she didn't, I certainly wouldn't
<br>allow her to smoke during my classes.  As far as an instructor
who can't
<br>swim 400 yards... I make it a point to do the swims with my students
<br>(granted; only 200 yards is required)... I, like many others on this
list,
<br>believe in trying to stay in shape... which is why you'll find me in
the gym
<br>at 5:30am 4 or 5 days a week.
<br>The examples you present are valid, and I've seen some PADI instructors
who
<br>did worse... but I still maintain that it ultimately is the instructor
who
<br>is responsible, and not the certifying agency.  I really believe
that most
<br>of the recreational certification agencies have the policies and
procedures
<br>in place to produce good, qualified, entry level, open water recreational
<br>divers... unfortunately as you say; there are too many bad instructors
out
<br>there, and, by virtue of it's size; PADI has the lions share of them.
<br>Understand though, that there are instructors within PADI who do care
about
<br>their students, who do produce adequately trained safe O/W divers.
<p>Regards,
<p>Joe West
<br>--
<br>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
<br>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</blockquote>
</html>

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