Fabrice, I'll chill out when the deaths stop, and if you can add up
deaths by experienced real cave divers ( not on deep air) in the last
ten years on one hand, I'll SYD. 

The problem, as Mike Bruic, Ken from NY, the guys in Akumal, and many
others have been complaining about and articulating is two fold :

1) everyone wants to play Francis Macomber with diving and do it in the
instant gratification mode.

2) there is a slimeball instructor out there waiting to accomodate them.

Combine that with a know it all attitude and the willingness of the
unscrupulous to promote "personal preference" to the "free thinkers" ,
the severe ignorance of real diving technigues and gear, and the void of
information out there by the agencies, and you have a recipe for
disaster which has already been running wild. 

I have spent a lot of time ammassing an undeniable track record and
performance record that the dive community can't even fathom and wil not
recognixe othe than by boot in the ass, and have been willing to exactly
and precisely explain everything we have learned along the way, and we
have set up organiztions , inclding training organizations to effect
these things, and have participated in other training organizations
efforts ( like NAUI ) to spread the word at zero return to myself, and
at the same time, me and my kind are the ones who suffer when the rules
get bent and the inappropriate get acommodated.

I will not chll out, Fabrice, I will continue to spot bullshit and react
accordingly. I never miss a great opportunity to make my point - this
guy was too good to pass up. Screw him, he is nothing but a power of
example - of the worst kind. I hope he quits diving for eveyone's sake,
or proves me correct, which he will.

The fact is that no decent instructor will take this guy on for cave
with 70 dives, so you figure out the outcome.

Fabrice, keep in mind that I dive anywhere anytime I want - the rest of
you are going to end up diving in a swimming pool if this shit does not
get arrested.

Tech diving and cave diving are a disaster right now.

Fabrice wrote:
> 
> Chill out George,
> Some guys are new and a little wet behind the ears.... They just need to be
> reminded of the realities of life. Any " Cave training instructor " that's
> worth his weight in gold should tell him the same without necessarily
> discouraging neither him nor slaging off the Cave or tech diving community.
> 
> I think you got the message Ben....Experience in safe and disciplined diving
> techniques is essential for survival.
> 
> Fabrice.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   kirvine@sa*.ne* [SMTP:kirvine@sa*.ne*]
> Sent:   Wednesday, January 05, 2000 4:39 AM
> To:     Alan Fossum
> Cc:     ben@wi*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject:        Re: Cave training
> 
> Alan, nobody is going to teach cave to a know it all with 70 dives other
> than maybe the bottom of the barrel. I advised this punk to put his
> wife's or mother's  phone number on his tanks, and make sure everyone
> knows where the car keys are. I'm calling this one right here, right now
> in public - this guy is dead within the year if he does not lose the
> attitude. He is coming in to our game telling us how he wants us to do
> it for him, His Majesty The Baby.
> 
> There is nothing , nothing more dangerous in this sport than an attitude
> like this person has . NOTHING. Anyone who takes this guy on as a cave
> student now is committing murder, and breaking evey rule in the books.
> This guy needs to take the cotton out of his ears and put it in his
> mouth, take a seat, and STFU.
> 
> By the way, the best humor came when this character wrote to me and said
> he would never take my courses! I love that shit - I am not an
> instructor. If you are taking my "course", you are in deep shit.
> 
> Alan Fossum wrote:
> >
> > Ben, 70 dives not near enough in my opinion. When I took my cave training I
> > must of had around 300-350 dives. With many of those in cold water using
> > doubles. I picked up on DIR early on from this list and cavers. Should of
> > seen my friends when I started diving with a backplate, wings and a 7ft
> > hose.
> > I took my training from Tyler Moon, at Ginnie Springs. Then there was no GUE
> > but he is one of there instructors now I believe. Check there website to be
> > sure, you can't go wrong with Tyler.
> > I asked the same question on techdiver and cavers back then and Tylers name
> > kept coming up time and again.
> > Good luck, Al
> >
> > Ben Wiseley wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I'm new to the mailing list and had some questions
> > > about Cave training.
> > >
> > > I was looking for recommendations of places to do my
> > > training.  I was interested in doing training in
> > > either Mexico or Florida but am open to any
> > > suggestions.
> > >
> > > What are peoples thoughts on TDI, GUE, and NSS-CDS?
> > > Is one group much better or is it the teacher that you
> > > should look for?  In Florida... when they say you need
> > > a "cave card" does it matter who it's from?
> > >
> > > I'm looking for very solid training but would like to
> > > avoid the overly opinionated people that seem to be in
> > > the tech community during my training (the people who
> > > will bite your head off if you dare to ask WHY the
> > > Hogarthian method is better than others).  I would
> > > like to find a group/individual who are more like
> > > teachers/scientists than some mad man military type.
> > > I realize that there is endless debate about every
> > > aspect of technical diving (although you all seem to
> > > agree that training is necessary).  I also realize
> > > that, at some point, the teacher made a decision that
> > > he thought was best and that everyone is very
> > > passionate about tech diving because people die doing
> > > it.  I just don't want to take classes from someone
> > > who verges on psychopathic if you dare ask why (which
> > > seems like a pretty natural thing to do in tech
> > > diving).
> > >
> > > My experience:  PADI Rescue Diver.  70 dives (Boston,
> > > Caribbean, and California).  Will be diving all of Feb
> > > - which should bring logged dives well over 100.  I've
> > > read every book I can find on technical (cave, wreck,
> > > deep) diving and would like to take the next step by
> > > starting training.
> > >
> > > Goals:  I'd like to be able to dive in moderate caves
> > > and minimize the risks as much as possible.
> > >
> > > Sorry for the long post.  Any information would be
> > > greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > -ben
> > > Boston, MA
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > > http://messenger.yahoo.com
> > > --
> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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> >
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> 
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