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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF3C0B.8BF10AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, I'm doing similar dives as you, although I won't go deeper than about = 140ft. I dive at 6000+ altitude in Flaming Gorge Reservoir here in = north-eastern Utah. The lake bottoms-out around 450 feet with sheer = cliffs and many underwater spires and crack systems... absolutely great = fun!=20 I have found that I am so impaired from narcosis when I'm below 125 = feet or so depending on how much sleep I've had, that my ability to = handle an emergency is dang poor. I have no intention of dying while = diving, although I don't mind pushing the envelope. I rock and ice = climb, participate in winter mountaineering/back-country skiing, have = been swept off of a first ascent ice climb (along with my climbing = buddy) by an avalanche and survived, been a cop since 1982, been shot, = and beaten (although I still won), am a serious road biker (bicycle) = (just did a photo shoot for Rodales' Bicycling Magazine as the model... = blush) and don't consider myself much of a pansy. I'm pretty darn = arrogant and have done really stupid things underwater.=20 I used to dive deep on air (to 235 feet! duh... stupid!) But at that = time, I didn't know any better... Now I do, so I don't do it anymore. I = mix all my own gas (haven't mixed any Trimix yet but will in future) = with my own cascade system that I built.=20 So what. Big deal. The point is, I can still learn and I can learn from = my mistakes. I can also learn from the mistakes of others. I started = diving as a teenager in 1970. I'm still just a beginner. People rant and = rave about how blunt George Irvine is (I've never met him, wouldn't know = him from Adam). How if the message was sweetened, that people would = swallow it easier and change. From my reading and study of the archives = and other sites, it appears that he has tried this. As Director of the = WKPP he has a responsibility for the lives of those working with him. It = appears that many of the changes in gear configuration, gases, deco, = etc. were made as a direct result of either a death or a near death, = either by one of the team, or by some other diver diving something = similar to what they were doing. George has had NO DEATHS since he = became director. He has found that showing ZERO TOLERANCE for anything = less than optimal saves lives. Yes, he is opinionated, yes he uses = obscenities. As a cop, occasionally this is the only language that some = people will understand (although usually I have found it unnecessary). = It appears to me that George is trying to shout the message: LOOK! WE'VE = MADE ALL THOSE MISTAKES IN THE PAST AND LEARNED OR DIED FROM THEM! WE = HAVE FOUND THE OPTIMAL SYSTEM! DON'T DIE AS A RESULT OF MAKING THE SAME = MISTAKES AS WE DID! The WKPP group has made deeper, longer, more extreme = dives than anyone else on the planet. I think they know what they're = talking about. Don't kill the messenger because you don't like the way = the message was delivered. I'm sure Mr. Irvine gets pretty darn frustrated when he finds himself = having to explain the same basic life-saving principles of Doing It = Right over and over. Try to remember that when we write and compose, we = are (usually) significantly more passionate and to the point than if we = were in person, so take this into account (the flames). By the way. 80/20 mix is not optimal. You're probably trying to get more = gas into your 30 or 40 cu. ft. 02 deco bottle because you can only fill = it to 2000 or 2400 psi at the very most from your big oxygen T bottle. = Don't bother topping it off with air to get a greater volume of mix. = Just use the 1500 to 2300psi pure 02 that you can fill it to. You want = to OFF-GAS the nitrogen, not add more to it. There's no advantage to = 80/20. Do your deco at 20 feet. Take care and have fun! Scott Gudmundsen Vernal, Utah ----- Original Message -----=20 From: <Deep1dave@ao*.co*> To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 12:38 PM Subject: PHYSIOLOGY OF NITROGEN vs. HELIUM AT DEPTH > Greetings! I am a new member, and have been following the posts = regarding=20 > deep air vs. Trimix and Heliox. I have to admit that I am almost = afraid to=20 > raise my hand.=20 >=20 > I have been doing dives in the range of 130fsw-200fsw in Carmel Bay, = Calif.. =20 > Typically our bottom times are 15-20min, with about 35-45 min. deco. = I carry=20 > a set of doubles, and sling 50/50 and 80/20. I switch to the 50/50 at = 60fsw=20 > and the 80/20 at 25fsw. All our dives are done on a line that is = dropped=20 > with a bottom finder prior to the dive. >=20 > *** I accept that Helium prevents narcosis, and that diving drunk is = risky!=20 > ***=20 >=20 > WHAT ABOUT PHYSIOLOGY? =20 >=20 > I am particularly interested if there are any differences in the=20 > physiological risks to the body at depth with He vs. N2. > =20 > Are maladies such as Neurological Damage and/or Dysbaric Osteonecrosis = the=20 > result of vascular damage caused by micro bubbles ( He or N2), -or = does the=20 > slugging of RBCs secondary to the effects of high ppn2s cause the = damage to=20 > the tissue? What if any are the differences in physiological risks = that He=20 > and Nitrogen have to capillary beds when used in a bottom mix?=20 >=20 > David Horne DVM >=20 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------------------------- >=20 > --Oh and George, why would I need to take a dog down with me when I = have you?=20 > Your are the prototypical Pavlov's dog. All anyone has to do is ask = you a=20 > question about this stuff and you come out a snappin and a snarlin. = Maybe=20 > your doctor can prescribe a drug to help you with your problem! >=20 > You don't know me or where I come from as a waterman. We all started=20 > breathing air! Were you born breathing He mixtures? >=20 > My question was a serious one. Are the medical risks associated with = deep=20 > diving a result of the effects of high gas pressures and micro = bubbles, or=20 > the individual gasses and their effects on the tissues, RBCs, etc.? = Are=20 > there any Physiological risks that are unique to He? >=20 > The reason that I am asking these questions stems from my experience = with the=20 > scuba industry in general. No one seems either willing, or capable of = giving=20 > you accurate and scientific answers. I was the first in my group to=20 > incorporate nitrox, and then deep stops in my diving. I may be the = first to=20 > incorporate He mixes. However, I have learned that it is best for me = to make=20 > my own decisions after looking at the relevant scientific information. >=20 > Are there any knowledgeable divers out there with the heart of a = scientist=20 > instead of a junkyard dog? Richard Pyle are you there? >=20 > David Horne DVM >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to = `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to = `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF3C0B.8BF10AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" = size=3D3>Dave,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>I'm doing = similar dives=20 as you, although I won't go deeper than about 140ft. I dive at 6000+ = altitude in=20 Flaming Gorge Reservoir here in north-eastern Utah. The lake bottoms-out = around=20 450 feet with sheer cliffs and many underwater spires and crack = systems...=20 absolutely great fun! </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3> I have = found that I am=20 so impaired from narcosis when I'm below 125 feet or so depending on how = much=20 sleep I've had, that my ability to handle an emergency is dang poor. I = have no=20 intention of dying while diving, although I don't mind pushing the = envelope. I=20 rock and ice climb, participate in winter mountaineering/back-country = skiing,=20 have been swept off of a first ascent ice climb (along with my climbing = buddy)=20 by an avalanche and survived, been a cop since 1982, been shot, and = beaten=20 (although I still won), am a serious road biker (bicycle) (just did a = photo=20 shoot for Rodales' Bicycling Magazine as the model... blush) and don't = consider=20 myself much of a pansy. I'm pretty darn arrogant and have done really = stupid=20 things underwater. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>I <U>used to = </U>dive deep=20 on air (to 235 feet! duh... stupid!) But at that time, I didn't know any = better... Now I do, so I don't do it anymore. I mix all my own gas = (haven't=20 mixed any Trimix yet but will in future) with my own cascade system that = I=20 built. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>So what. Big = deal. The point=20 is, I can still learn and I can learn from my mistakes. I can also learn = from=20 the mistakes of others. I started diving as a teenager in 1970. I'm = still just a=20 beginner. People rant and rave about how blunt George Irvine is (I've = never met=20 him, wouldn't know him from Adam). How if the message was sweetened, = that people=20 would swallow it easier and change. From my reading and study of the = archives=20 and other sites, it appears that he has tried this. As Director of the = WKPP he=20 has a responsibility for the lives of those working with him. It appears = that=20 many of the changes in gear configuration, gases, deco, etc. were made = as a=20 direct result of either a death or a near death, either by one of the = team, or=20 by some other diver diving something similar to what they were doing. = George has=20 had NO DEATHS since he became director. He has found that showing ZERO = TOLERANCE=20 for anything less than optimal saves lives. Yes, he is opinionated, yes = he uses=20 obscenities. As a cop, occasionally this is the only language that some = people=20 will understand (although usually I have found it unnecessary). It = appears to me=20 that George is trying to shout the message: LOOK! WE'VE MADE ALL THOSE = MISTAKES=20 IN THE PAST AND LEARNED OR DIED FROM THEM! WE HAVE FOUND THE OPTIMAL = SYSTEM!=20 DON'T DIE AS A RESULT OF MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES AS WE DID! The = WKPP group=20 has made deeper, longer, more extreme dives than anyone else on the = planet. I=20 think they know what they're talking about. Don't kill the messenger = because you=20 don't like the way the message was delivered.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>I'm sure Mr. = Irvine gets=20 pretty darn frustrated when he finds himself having to explain the same = basic=20 life-saving principles of Doing It Right over and over. Try to remember = that=20 when we write and compose, we are (usually) significantly more = passionate and to=20 the point than if we were in person, so take this into account (the=20 flames).</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>By the way. = 80/20 mix is not=20 optimal. You're probably trying to get more gas into your 30 or 40 cu. = ft. 02=20 deco bottle because you can only fill it to 2000 or 2400 psi at the very = most=20 from your big oxygen T bottle. Don't bother topping it off with air to = get a=20 greater volume of mix. Just use the 1500 to 2300psi pure 02 that you can = fill it=20 to. You want to OFF-GAS the nitrogen, not add more to it. There's no = advantage=20 to 80/20. Do your deco at 20 feet.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>Take care and = have=20 fun!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>Scott=20 Gudmundsen</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>Vernal, = Utah</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>----- Original = Message -----=20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>From: <<A=20 href=3D"mailto:Deep1dave@ao*.co*">Deep1dave@aol.com</A>></FONT></DIV > <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>To: <<A=20 href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>></FO= NT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>Sent: Tuesday, = November 30,=20 1999 12:38 PM</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>Subject: = PHYSIOLOGY OF=20 NITROGEN vs. HELIUM AT DEPTH</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3>> = Greetings! I am a new member, and have been following the posts = regarding=20 <BR>> deep air vs. Trimix and Heliox. I have to admit = that I am=20 almost afraid to <BR>> raise my hand. <BR>> <BR>> I have been = doing=20 dives in the range of 130fsw-200fsw in Carmel Bay, Calif.. = <BR>>=20 Typically our bottom times are 15-20min, with about 35-45 min. = deco. I=20 carry <BR>> a set of doubles, and sling 50/50 and 80/20. I = switch to=20 the 50/50 at 60fsw <BR>> and the 80/20 at 25fsw. All our dives = are done=20 on a line that is dropped <BR>> with a bottom finder prior to the=20 dive.<BR>> <BR>> *** I accept that Helium prevents narcosis, and = that=20 diving drunk is risky! <BR>> *** <BR>> <BR>> WHAT ABOUT=20 PHYSIOLOGY? <BR>> <BR>> I am particularly = interested if=20 there are any differences in the <BR>> physiological risks to the = body at=20 depth with He vs. N2.<BR>> <BR>> Are maladies such as = Neurological=20 Damage and/or Dysbaric Osteonecrosis the <BR>> result of vascular = damage=20 caused by micro bubbles ( He or N2), -or does the <BR>> slugging of = RBCs=20 secondary to the effects of high ppn2s cause the damage to <BR>> the=20 tissue? What if any are the differences in physiological risks = that He=20 <BR>> and Nitrogen have to capillary beds when used in a bottom mix? = <BR>>=20 <BR>> David Horne DVM<BR>> <BR>>=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----<BR>>=20 ---------------------------<BR>> <BR>> --Oh and George, why would = I need=20 to take a dog down with me when I have you? <BR>> Your are the=20 prototypical Pavlov's dog. All anyone has to do is ask you a = <BR>>=20 question about this stuff and you come out a snappin and a = snarlin. Maybe=20 <BR>> your doctor can prescribe a drug to help you with your = problem!<BR>>=20 <BR>> You don't know me or where I come from as a waterman. We = all=20 started <BR>> breathing air! Were you born breathing He=20 mixtures?<BR>> <BR>> My question was a serious one. Are the = medical=20 risks associated with deep <BR>> diving a result of the effects of = high gas=20 pressures and micro bubbles, or <BR>> the individual gasses and their = effects=20 on the tissues, RBCs, etc.? Are <BR>> there any Physiological = risks=20 that are unique to He?<BR>> <BR>> The reason that I am asking = these=20 questions stems from my experience with the <BR>> scuba industry in=20 general. No one seems either willing, or capable of giving = <BR>> you=20 accurate and scientific answers. I was the first in my group to = <BR>>=20 incorporate nitrox, and then deep stops in my diving. I may be the = first=20 to <BR>> incorporate He mixes. However, I have learned that it = is best=20 for me to make <BR>> my own decisions after looking at the relevant=20 scientific information.<BR>> <BR>> Are there any knowledgeable = divers out=20 there with the heart of a scientist <BR>> instead of a junkyard = dog? =20 Richard Pyle are you there?<BR>> <BR>> David Horne DVM<BR>> = <BR>>=20 <BR>> <BR>> --<BR>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list = to `<A=20 href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com'">techdiver@aquanaut.com'</A>.<BR>&= gt; Send=20 subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `<A=20 href=3D"mailto:techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'">techdiver-request@aquanau= t.com'</A>.<BR>>=20 </FONT></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF3C0B.8BF10AC0-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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