Chris, I agree. I for one would rather hear about safe deep air diving from 
Mark Zurl than any of Irvine's ridiculous pansy diving, and I too have a set 
of Navy Extreme Exposure Air Tables which have served me quite well, thank 
you. If you can't do it on air, you have no business diving at all.

Zurl needs to ignore the naysayers and get back on here where he is badly 
needed for the kind of great information and diving excellence he represents. 
For instance, I would kill to get a closer look at how he duct tapes a pony 
bottle to a set doubles - now that is a slick idea.

      
Chris Curtis wrote:
> 
> To all my fellow Tech Divers;
> 
> My name is Chris Curtis and I am the least talented technical diver that I
> know. However, I feel it necessary to comment upon the "trash talk" that
> seems to be popular with certain individuals.
>  I have U.S. Navy Air Tables from my first scuba certification text " The
> New science of  Skin and Scuba Diving" written in the 1950's and upgraded in
> the 1960's that lists Standard and No Decompression  Tables to 190'  and
> Exceptional and Extreme Exposures tables to 300'. These were with equipment
> that included a single or double tank (with straps and not even a backpack,
> double hose regulators, a dive watch and MAYBE a pressure gauge ( although I
> personally never knew any one who owned one). Scuba diving tended to be more
> risky in regard to equipment, but was counterbalanced by  rigorous  dive and
> water skills.
> 
> Technology, education, and organized training have improved greatly, but
> attitude toward risks a have remained constant. People have different levels
> of ability and experiences and therefore evaluate dives differently and each
> person is ultimately responsible their own life. What one person may
> consider safe and routine, another may consider hazardous and exceptional.
> We are all or should be, serious or professional scuba divers whether at 33'
> or 330' down.
> 
> The belief that anyone can or should berate or degrade another person for
> experiences, skills, or practices that conflict or differ from someone else
> demonstrates a basic social maladjustment that is unsuited to group
> discussions or activities. Mark Zurl, whom I believe to an excellent diver
> and person, has been persecuted and vilified repeatedly, and now is
> withdrawn from the mailing list, to accommodate individuals with obviously
> poor communication (i.e. trash talking) and social skills and probably less
> scuba diving abilities or experience.
> 
> Mr. Zurl, come back, we need you.
> 
> Mr. Irvine, learn some manners.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FLTechDiver-owner@mikey.net [mailto:FLTechDiver-owner@mikey.net]On
> Behalf Of mcz
> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 12:16 PM
> To: pina
> Cc: kirvine@sa*.ne*; techdiver; FLTechdiver@mikey.net
> Subject: Re: deep air death at 40 fathom grotto
> 
> All -
> 
> I subscribed to this list (techdiver,  not FLTechDiver)
> recently in anticipation that I might find
> a forum whereby I might discuss technical diving with others who share
> my interests.  What I have found instead was an email list that has been
> reduced to ranting and raging insults, loud mouthed bullying, personal
> attacks and belittlement, and much pointless and superflous foul language.
> All this seems to be orchestrated by just several people and anybody who
> follows this list would not have a hard time ascertaining who they are.
> 
> So for the record, I am unsubscribing from this list because Mr. Irvine's
> comments below to Pina are more than outrageous, they go beyond the
> bounds of common decency and respect to divers everywhere.
> 
> By the way, deep air dives can be done safely.
> 
> Mark Zurl
> 
> pina wrote:
> 
> >         Mr. Irvine, I have nothing to do with what happened, and I totally
> > agree with you about the hazards of deep air.  I don't know you nor do I
> > know most of the people on this list becauseI have only been diving since
> > this year.  I dive all the time and love it very much and am always very
> > thankful for acquiring new knowledge about how to do it more safely, which
> > is why I am on this list.
> >
> >         I started diving up in the grotto and therefore know all the
> people
> > related to it, that is where I got my account of the story.  But please
> > don't assume that just because I know someone who told me about what
> > happened there, that I am involved in any way.  I may have started on deep
> > air but am intelligent enough to not still be diving it.  I have so very
> > much to learn about diving, which is why I tried to make my account of
> what
> > happened as unflavored by opinion as possible.  I only wanted to inform
> the
> > list of the details which I personally had been privy to.
> >
> >     I have no insurance to lose.  I have no ego to protect.  I mean no
> > disrespect to anyone, be it the families of the deceased diver who may be
> > reading this list, or you and all of the people who help through whatever
> > message suits them to spread the message to newcomers like myself that
> > diving deep air is dangerous.  If it weren't for all of the helpful and
> > experienced divers I have met since I moved down here <and joined this
> > list>, *teaching* others like myself a safer way to dive, maybe I would
> > still be up there and maybe that story would have been about me.  True,
> some
> > people are die hard old salty dogs about deep air.  But others, like
> myself,
> > started doing it becuase I hadn't found a better way and that was all that
> > was available to me at the time.  Thank god for evolution and knowledge,
> and
> > may it continue.
> >
> >     I have no interest in arguing with you or anyone else about diving,
> nor
> > do I have any place doing so with my very limited experience.  I just was
> > relaying information that I thought others might be interested in.  I am
> on
> > here to learn as much as possible, and in between the scattered mayhem, I
> do
> > learn quite a lot.  Thank you sir, and others who have read this message,
> > for your time, and have a Happy Thanksgiving.
> > --pina
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
> > To: pina <DeepBlueSHE@ne*.co*>
> > Cc: techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; <FLTechdiver@mikey.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: deep air death at 40 fathom grotto
> >
> > > Pina, the dates do not matter - do stupid things like deep air and you
> > > can just keep sending out the same release each time. Bullshit is
> > > bullshit, and what is going on at 40 fathom grotto is bullshit, and
> > > everyone seems to know that othre than a small handfull of idiots.
> > >
> > > This is not my opinion, it is reality - only a moron dives deep air,
> > > teaches deep air, or would try to send out anything as stupid as blaming
> > > a deap air death on a "violation of standards". It is a violation of
> > > common sense, and in my opinion , what you people arr doing is criminal,
> > > and I really hope you not only get sued into oblivion, I hope you get
> > > charged with murder, because in my opionion that is what you are
> > > attempting to commit every time you do this.
> > > '
> > > You people are so stupid and so out of line it is ridiculous. Hopefully
> > > you will lose your insurance and then your ass.
> > >
> > >
> > > pina wrote:
> > > >
> > > >     The article posted on that webpage
> > > > (http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/AQUAcorps/contents.htm) is not
> > > > about the incident from last weekend  (you can check the html source
> > > > and see the date it was created was 5/28/98). I haven't seen any
> > > > detailed printed information about the recent incident yet, but I
> > > > think it has been in a couple small newspaper articles.
> > > >
> > > >     The trimix instructor (the survivor) was from  Atlanta and the
> > > > student <instructor also> was from Tennessee.  The instructor
> > > > was familiar with the site, and knew specifically that he was not to
> > > > go deeper than 200' under any circumstances.
> > > >
> > > >     The pair went down a line to 220' ish which ends at a Oldsmobile,
> > > > followed that line over to a VW van and from there left the lines and
> > > > went exploring the bottom of the Grotto (with a compass I guess, or
> > > > perhaps a reel or maybe nothing at all).  They drifted down the slope
> > > > to 230' and that is where the instructor said that his student shot
> > > > off swimming away from him.
> > > >
> > > >     He went to chase the student and then he got entangled in whatever
> > > > he got entangled in.  The instructor stated that he got entangled in a
> > > > line <but at 230' in the Grotto there are not very many lines, just
> > > > one straight one which is kept taught> so he must have been severely
> > > > impaired at that time, perhaps gotten entangled in his reel (if he was
> > > > running one - which I don't know either way).  By the time he got out
> > > > of it he realized he was in the red zone and ascended immediately.
> > > >
> > > >     A diver on the 30 ft. platform shared air with the OOA instructor
> > > > and led him over to the o2 and alerted surface divers to the missing
> > > > diver.  Someone jumped in and immediately began searching for him, but
> > > > he was not located and after about 30 minutes it was determined that
> > > > he must be dead.  His fins were found, however, at 230'.  That means
> > > > that the deceased diver took off his fins in 230' of water, makes
> > > > sense.
> > > >
> > > >     The instructor who survived had missed his deco stops (which I
> > > > guess were all planned for air since he had no stages... looks like
> > > > they were bluffing about those being trimix training dives).  After
> > > > breathing off the o2 for a while he was sent to the hospital as a
> > > > precautionary measure, but apparently no symptoms were evident.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________
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