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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3023877834_880681_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dell, I'm familiar with the "old" half-hitch, but haven't seen it since the collapse. I understand that the collapse was essentially a collapse of clay, not rock. Previously, you really couldn't silt-out the half-hitch or at least you had to try pretty hard. Is this restriction now one that silts with the passage of any diver? Downstream Courtyard to the Crossunder Tunnel is or was like that. This isn't necessarily directed to you, but I'd like to see Accident Analysis to be more fully integrated into the two main cave organizations. My feeling is that they have gotten away from that focus. I received lots of info about the CDS Socials, in the mail, via email, on the web and in the newsletter, but very little about AA. I'm not criticizing those who volunteer their time to put these on. Socials serve a function. I'm just concerned that the focus over time has not been to clearly and publicly discuss every accident in as accurate and dispassionate a way as possible. This is essential to ongoing diver safety, much like the NTSB does after an airplane crash, only AA data needs to be a bit more available. My personal feeling is that this is what these cave diving organizations should be about. Cave acquisition and projects should and I think for the most part does come second to cave diver safety, but Accident Analysis should be at the heart of this effort. It should be prominently displayed on the web and discussed as it has been here. It should be the one of the primary focuses of each issue of the newsletters. A column that discusses AA; a current situation if there are accidents to discuss, an examination of a past accident if not. I even think there could be a place for an AA mailing list for tech divers that supplements and complements Techdiver; a place where recovery divers could answer questions and post reports in a live give-and-take environment. I understand that the IUCRR has been given primary authority to investigate and report on cave diving accidents in the US. If so, I hope that they get the support they need and that their reports are timely, accurate and very public. I'm still waiting, however, for a report to be made on the accident a few months ago in Jackson Blue. Do you know if one has been released by the IUCRR or either cave organization? A central clearing house for accurate info on Accident Analysis is essential. Finally, thank you for the efforts that you and the recovery team made in this unfortunate accident and have made in the past. It can't be good duty and those of us who dive in water-filled caves and are aware of what is done in this area on our behalf do appreciate very much the time you give for this purpose. I'm sure that such incidents take a toll on you guys personally and I cannot thank you enough. Later, JoeL PS--The IUCRR page on the CDS site is at: http://www.caves.org/section/cds/ncrc.htm (thanks to Robert Laird) From: "Dell Motes" <dell@di*.co*> Reply-To: "Dell Motes" <dell@di*.co*> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:18:51 -0400 To: "techdiver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Subject: Re: Madison Blue Fatalities As it was, Lamar and I spent 91 minutes and 3 trips back to the scene in near zero visibility to get everything out. We don't go in and yank deceased divers out without careful consideration of all involved, and do our best to figure out EXACTLY what happened for the good of all. I have already stated this is no mystery, simply many factors that all played a role in an awful tragedy. You can look at several factors and scenarios and see human error. I guarantee every cave diver, has made the same errors at one time or another in our career. --MS_Mac_OE_3023877834_880681_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Madison Blue Fatalities</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> Dell,<BR> <BR> I'm familiar with the "old" half-hitch, but haven't seen it since= the collapse. I understand that the collapse was essentially a collapse of = clay, not rock. Previously, you really couldn't silt-out the half-hitch or a= t least you had to try pretty hard. Is this restriction now one that silts w= ith the passage of any diver? Downstream Courtyard to the Crossunder Tunnel = is or was like that. <BR> <BR> This isn't necessarily directed to you, but I'd like to see Accident Analys= is to be more fully integrated into the two main cave organizations. My feel= ing is that they have gotten away from that focus. I received lots of info a= bout the CDS Socials, in the mail, via email, on the web and in the newslett= er, but very little about AA. I'm not criticizing those who volunteer their = time to put these on. Socials serve a function. I'm just concerned that the = focus over time has not been to clearly and publicly discuss every accident = in as accurate and dispassionate a way as possible. This is essential to ong= oing diver safety, much like the NTSB does after an airplane crash, only AA = data needs to be a bit more available.<BR> <BR> My personal feeling is that this is what these cave diving organizations sh= ould be about. Cave acquisition and projects should and I think for the most= part does come second to cave diver safety, but Accident Analysis should be= at the heart of this effort. It should be prominently displayed on the web = and discussed as it has been here. It should be the one of the primary focus= es of each issue of the newsletters. A column that discusses AA; a current s= ituation if there are accidents to discuss, an examination of a past acciden= t if not. I even think there could be a place for an AA mailing list for tec= h divers that supplements and complements Techdiver; a place where recovery = divers could answer questions and post reports in a live give-and-take envir= onment.<BR> <BR> I understand that the IUCRR has been given primary authority to investigate= and report on cave diving accidents in the US. If so, I hope that they get = the support they need and that their reports are timely, accurate and very p= ublic. I'm still waiting, however, for a report to be made on the accident a= few months ago in Jackson Blue. Do you know if one has been released by the= IUCRR or either cave organization? A central clearing house for accurate in= fo on Accident Analysis is essential.<BR> <BR> Finally, thank you for the efforts that you and the recovery team made in t= his unfortunate accident and have made in the past. It can't be good duty an= d those of us who dive in water-filled caves and are aware of what is done i= n this area on our behalf do appreciate very much the time you give for this= purpose. I'm sure that such incidents take a toll on you guys personally an= d I cannot thank you enough. <BR> <BR> Later,<BR> <BR> JoeL<BR> <BR> PS--The IUCRR page on the CDS site is at:<BR> <BR> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.caves.org/section/cds/ncrc.htm<BR> </U></FONT><BR> (thanks to Robert Laird)<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <B>From: </B>"Dell Motes" <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>dell@di*= rite.com</U></FONT>><BR> <B>Reply-To: </B>"Dell Motes" <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>dell@d= ive-rite.com</U></FONT>><BR> <B>Date: </B>Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:18:51 -0400<BR> <B>To: </B>"techdiver" <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>techdiver@aqu= anaut.com</U></FONT>><BR> <B>Subject: </B>Re: Madison Blue Fatalities<BR> <BR> <FONT SIZE=3D"2">As it was, Lamar and I spent 91 minutes and 3 trips back to = the scene in near zero visibility to get everything out.<BR> We don't go in and yank deceased divers out without careful consideration o= f all involved, and do our best to figure out EXACTLY what happened for the = good of all.<BR> I have already stated this is no mystery, simply many factors that all play= ed a role in an awful tragedy.<BR> You can look at several factors and scenarios and see human error.<BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">I guarantee every cave diver, has made t= he same errors at one time or another in our career. <BR> </FONT> </BODY> </HTML> --MS_Mac_OE_3023877834_880681_MIME_Part-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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