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To the list,
=20
Dell, thanks for the additional post. Unfortunately this new data just =
adds to my confusion. I'm asking these following questions because I =
don't understand, and not because I'm trying to be a smart ass. Your =
contributions to diving and education are numerous and stand on their =
own merit.=20
=20
When I look at the resources being committed, and the depth of the =
investigation being performed tonight in South Dakota it makes me =
wonder: do Richard Siaba, Kevin Lymn, their fellow cavers, and their =
families deserve any less?
=20
Accident Analysis should start with a really thorough Accident =
Investigation. I don't know what Florida Police do or don't do in diving =
related accidents (remember WAK 2), but what I've read so far seems to =
be more of a body recovery. One of the questions we should start asking =
is why we teach recovery and not investigation to the authorities and or =
divers trained to do this work. Like many accidents this should have =
been avoidable and I don't want myself or others to face a similar =
situation without adequate understanding of what went wrong and how it =
could have been avoided.
I ask the following questions:
1). If the incorrect arrow was in place as stated, is there any =
evidence the divers marked it with their arrow pointing out in the =
correct direction as they encountered this miss-directed arrow? They =
were no doubt trained to do so, and they certainly had to pass this =
incorrect arrow. Did they have their own arrows on their rigs? Each =
diver? Is it possible one of them placed or moved this arrow? Was it =
removed and checked for fingerprints?
2). If the line did not blow downstream as previously posted, why did =
they deploy two reels? If primary reels, we're talking about a lot of =
line out in the cave so why the big gap. Were the reels tied end to end, =
or what?=20
3). Are we not concerned with the possibility these guys broke the line =
on the way in and were not even aware of the fact?=20
4). How do you explain two divers getting tangled up in line that =
apparently was in the restriction? Would that have not been most likely =
just the first diver? I'd like someone to explain this one to me. Didn't =
they have one or more knives and where were the knives located on their =
rigs?
Has anyone attempted to reenact this sequence? Reenactment is a basic =
technique of investigation. Were these divers so tangled up they =
couldn't swim? Hard to believe that's possible. And it is not clear to =
me if the diver on the ceiling, becoming buoyant after removing his gear =
was entangled, or was it his gear that was entangled? That really struck =
me as strange. Dell's last report mentions the fact "they stuck =
together," I read that as they were tied together. Big difference when =
it comes to attempting to assess the mental state of a couple of divers =
in trouble. And 500 lbs. left in one set of tanks-why?
5). What happened to the missing line upstream of the restriction? Was =
it tired off somewhere? Is it still there? Where? Sorry to keep coming =
back to this. I mean, did it swim upstream somehow? The first report =
from Dell said the line, once unentangled from the divers had been taken =
through the restriction and it didn't reach the standing end of the =
remaining line? Why? Again, where was the missing line? What was the =
distance upstream from the restriction to the first existent tie off on =
the permanent line. Were there any other tie offs between this point and =
the upstream existent tie off. What was the total length of the =
permanent line recovered and what was the total length of the line that =
was involved in the entanglement?
7. What evidence is being used to support the possible conclusion that a =
knot joining two sections of line failed and therefore caused this =
accident. What types of knots are employed in this immediate area? =
Overhand, reef, what? And doesn't it stretch credibility that a knot =
that had held for who knows how long would just fail after they passed =
it?
I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, I'm simply tired of hearing of =
another diving accident by unknown causes. There's so much here to be =
understood. Accident analysis was intended to be utilized, it's how we =
learn. As many others have pointed out, if we don't start training =
better divers, we may all be locked out soon.
My sincere condolences to the families if they're reading this.
JR Gordon=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dell Motes=20
To: gordonjr ; techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Madison Blue Fatalities
Gordon and List,
A subsequent dive was made upstream with a few more facts to add to =
the scenario.
The two reels that had been deployed were in good working order, =
neither was jammed. The third was just laying there, in a stowed =
position.=20
The 900' permanent line marker arrow (upstream of the restriction) was =
facing INTO the cave, obviously the wrong direction. This explained some =
of the profile on the Niteks. It appears they made more than one trip =
back upstream to verify their position, because of mirror images on the =
profile.
We have no way of knowing who did this, nor do we expect any one to =
own up to it. There were several breaks and repairs in this area, and =
someone made a hasty mistake in arrow placement.=20
Had this not been in the wrong direction, they may have made it out, =
even with the other problems they had. This added to confusion and =
burned up valuable time they did not have.
The permanent line did not blow downstream, it was tied off right at =
the downstream side of the restriction. They were tangled up in the =
slack that had been in the restriction.=20
They did the line searches, they stuck together, they perished =
together.
This is still a wake up call as to what can happen.=20
You have to use MORE caution when in such a high traffic cave, for =
situations exactly like this. A large number of teams had been through =
this area since the initial line patch. No one took the time to do =
rectify this, and it became just one factor in many on this fatality. =20
You have to be constantly aware of all aspects, no matter how remote =
or unlikely they may seem.=20
You have to make every dive like it's exploration, alert and absorbing =
every thing you see and do.
A permanent guideline is just a convenience, not a crutch. How many =
people would use their reels with different size line and full of =
patches ?? Very few, I believe.
How good would your tie-offs and placement be if you knew you were =
coming out in zero visibility? I'd say very good, or you get killed or =
you wouldn't get very far, one of the two. =20
What kind of restrictions would you go through if you were the first =
EVER to be
there? Let me tell from experience, you consider very hard just how =
bad you want to see what's on the other side.=20
Line arrows are cheap, but how many people deploy their own when they =
see anything questionable? Your more likely to see them used in the =
middle of nowhere, as a personal goal or "look I've been this far".
Hell, I use arrows like Post It notes, but that doesn't mean carry 20 =
of them on your harness all lined up nice and neat for appearances only. =
I use them and remove them, very few are left in place and they are =
there for a subsequent dive.
This was preventable, not a mysterious occurrence that means revamping =
cave diving techniques or line size.
I'm glad to see that some good may come out of such a tragedy, because =
several have said it scared them. Accident analysis is invaluable in =
this respect, it causes people to look at themselves and the way they =
dive.=20
Treat every dive with respect, use the techniques you've been taught =
and use them often.
You 'll get more fulfillment out of being the best you can, and above =
all else you'll stand a much better chance of surviving something like =
this.=20
Dell Motes
Dive Rite
117 W.Washington St.
Lake City, Florida 32055 =20
www.dive-rite.com
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: gordonjr <jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*>
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:09 AM
Subject: Madison Blue Fatalities
Dell,
Did the body recovery team produced a formal "accident analysis =
report" for the deaths at Madison Blue, and if so could you please post =
it to the lists. Additionally, if there is any further info on this =
accident that you think might be educational or preventative, such as =
John Strohm's question about the type of knot, could you also please =
forward that to the lists.=20
I hope this accident scares the hell out of every caver, I know it =
does me. I can't remember the last time I checked the condition of a =
knot when passing a main line splice? I know I won't soon pass one again =
without inspection.
Dell thanks for your time and posts,
JR Gordon
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">To the list,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Dell, thanks for the additional =
post.=20
Unfortunately this new data just adds to my confusion. I'm asking these=20
following questions because I don't understand, and not because I'm =
trying to be=20
a smart ass. Your contributions to diving and education are numerous and =
stand=20
on their own merit. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">When I look at the resources =
being=20
committed, and the depth of the investigation being performed =
tonight=20
in South Dakota it makes me wonder: do Richard Siaba, Kevin =
Lymn,=20
their fellow cavers, and their families deserve any less?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Accident Analysis should start with =
a really=20
thorough Accident Investigation<EM><STRONG>. </STRONG></EM>I don't
know =
what=20
Florida Police do or don't do in diving related accidents (remember WAK =
2), but=20
what I've read so far seems to be more of a body recovery. <FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">One of the questions we should start asking is =
why we=20
teach recovery and not investigation to the authorities and or divers =
trained to=20
do this work. Lik</FONT>e many</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times
New =
Roman">=20
accidents this should have been avoidable and I don't want =
myself or=20
others to face a similar situation without adequate understanding of =
what went=20
wrong and how it could have been avoided.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">I ask the following =
questions:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><BR>1). If the =
incorrect=20
arrow was in place as stated, is there any evidence the divers =
marked it=20
with their arrow pointing out in the correct direction as they =
encountered=20
this miss-directed arrow? They were no doubt trained to do so, and they=20
certainly had to pass this incorrect arrow. Did they have their own =
arrows=20
on their rigs? Each diver? Is it possible one of them placed or moved =
this=20
arrow? Was it removed and checked for fingerprints?<BR><BR>2). If the =
line did=20
not blow downstream as previously posted, why did they deploy two =
reels? If=20
primary reels, we're talking about a lot of line out in the cave so why =
the big=20
gap. Were the reels tied end to end, or what? <BR><BR>3). Are we not =
concerned=20
with the possibility these guys broke the line on the way in and were =
not even=20
aware of the fact? <BR><BR>4). How do you explain two divers =
getting=20
tangled up in line that apparently was in the restriction? Would that =
have not=20
been most likely just the first diver? I'd like someone to explain this =
one to=20
me. Didn't they have one or more knives and where were the knives =
located=20
on their rigs?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Has anyone attempted to reenact this =
sequence?=20
Reenactment is a basic technique of investigation. Were these divers so =
tangled=20
up they couldn't swim? Hard to believe that's possible. And it is not =
clear to=20
me if the diver on the ceiling, becoming buoyant after removing his gear =
was=20
entangled, or was it his gear that was entangled? That really struck me =
as=20
strange. Dell's last report mentions the fact "they<EM><STRONG>=20
</STRONG></EM>stuck<STRONG><EM> </EM></STRONG>together," I
read that as =
they=20
were tied together. Big difference when it comes to attempting to assess =
the=20
mental state of a couple of divers in trouble. And 500 lbs. left in one =
set of=20
tanks-why?<BR><BR>5). What happened to the missing line upstream of =
the=20
restriction? Was it tired off somewhere? Is it still there? Where? Sorry =
to keep=20
coming back to this. I mean, did it swim upstream somehow? The first =
report from=20
Dell said the line, once unentangled from the divers had been taken =
through the=20
restriction and it didn't reach the standing end of the remaining line? =
Why?=20
Again, where was the missing line? What was the distance upstream from =
the=20
restriction to the first existent tie off on the permanent line. Were =
there any=20
other tie offs between this point and the upstream existent tie off. =
What was=20
the total length of the permanent line recovered and what was the =
total=20
length of the line that was involved in the entanglement?<BR><BR>7. What =
evidence is being used to support the possible conclusion that a knot =
joining=20
two sections of line failed and therefore caused this =
accident. What types=20
of knots are employed in this immediate area? Overhand, reef, =
what? =20
And doesn't it stretch credibility that a knot that had held for who =
knows how=20
long would just fail after they passed it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">I'm sorry if this post offends =
anyone, I'm=20
simply tired of hearing of another diving accident by unknown =
causes.=20
There's so much here to be understood. Accident analysis was =
intended to be=20
utilized, it's how we learn. As many others have pointed out, if we =
don't=20
start training better divers, we may all be locked out =
soon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">My sincere condolences to the =
families if=20
they're reading this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">JR
Gordon</FONT> <BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3D3>----- Original Message =
-----=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><FONT=20
size=3D3><B>From:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:dell@di*.co*"=20
title=3Ddell@di*.co*>Dell Motes</A> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3D3><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*"=20
title=3Djrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*>gordonjr</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com"=20
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3D3><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, =
October 25,=20
1999 9:08 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3D3><B>Subject:</B>
Re: =
Madison Blue=20
Fatalities</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Gordon and List,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>A subsequent dive was made upstream with a =
few more=20
facts to add to the scenario.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>The two reels that had been deployed were =
in good=20
working order, neither was jammed. The third was just laying there, in =
a=20
stowed position. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>The 900' permanent line marker arrow =
(upstream of the=20
restriction) was facing INTO the cave, obviously the wrong direction. =
This=20
explained some of the profile on the Niteks. It appears they made more =
than=20
one trip back upstream to verify their position, because of mirror =
images on=20
the profile.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>We have no way of knowing who did =
this, nor do=20
we expect any one to own up to it. There were several breaks and =
repairs in=20
this area, and someone made a hasty mistake in arrow placement. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Had this not been in the wrong direction, =
they may=20
have made it out, even with the other problems they had. This added to =
confusion and burned up valuable time they did not have.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>The permanent line did not blow =
downstream, it=20
was tied off right at the downstream side of the restriction. They =
were=20
tangled up in the slack that had been in the restriction. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>They did the line searches, they =
stuck=20
together, they perished together.</DIV>
<DIV>This is still a wake up call as to what can happen. </DIV>
<DIV>You have to use MORE caution when in such a high traffic cave, =
for=20
situations exactly like this. A large number of teams had been through =
this=20
area since the initial line patch. No one took the time to do rectify =
this,=20
and it became just one factor in many on this fatality. =
</DIV>
<DIV>You have to be constantly aware of all aspects, no matter how =
remote or=20
unlikely they may seem. </DIV>
<DIV>You have to make every dive like it's exploration, alert and =
absorbing=20
every thing you see and do.</DIV>
<DIV>A permanent guideline is just a convenience, not a crutch. How =
many=20
people would use their reels with different size line and full of =
patches ??=20
Very few, I believe.</DIV>
<DIV>How good would your tie-offs and placement be if you knew =
you were=20
coming out in zero visibility? I'd say very good, or you get killed or =
you=20
wouldn't get very far, one of the two. </DIV>
<DIV>What kind of restrictions would you go through if you were the =
first EVER=20
to be</DIV>
<DIV>there? Let me tell from experience, you consider very hard =
just how=20
bad you want to see what's on the other side. </DIV>
<DIV>Line arrows are cheap, but how many people deploy their own when =
they see=20
anything questionable? Your more likely to see them used in the middle =
of=20
nowhere, as a personal goal or "look I've been this far".</DIV>
<DIV>Hell, I use arrows like Post It notes, but that doesn't mean =
carry 20 of=20
them on your harness all lined up nice and neat for appearances only. =
I use=20
them and remove them, very few are left in place and they are there =
for a=20
subsequent dive.</DIV>
<DIV>This was preventable, not a mysterious occurrence that means =
revamping=20
cave diving techniques or line size.</DIV>
<DIV>I'm glad to see that some good may come out of such a tragedy, =
because=20
several have said it scared them. Accident analysis is invaluable in =
this=20
respect, it causes people to look at themselves and the way they =
dive.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>Treat every dive with respect, use the techniques you've been =
taught and=20
use them often.</DIV>
<DIV>You 'll get more fulfillment out of being the best you can, and =
above all=20
else you'll stand a much better chance of surviving something like=20
this. </DIV>
<DIV>Dell Motes<BR>Dive Rite<BR>117 W.Washington St.<BR>Lake
City, =
Florida=20
32055 <BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.dive-rite.com">www.dive-rite.com</A><BR> &n=
bsp; </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><B>-----Original
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>gordonjr <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*">jrgordonsenior@email.msn.com=
</A>><BR><B>To:=20
</B><A =
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> <<A =
=
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
</B>Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:09 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Madison
Blue =
Fatalities<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Dell,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Did the body recovery team =
produced a=20
formal "accident analysis report" for the deaths at Madison Blue, =
and if so=20
could you please post it to the lists. Additionally, if there is any =
further=20
info on this accident that you think might be educational or =
preventative,=20
such as John Strohm's question about the type of knot, could =
you also=20
please forward that to the lists. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I hope this accident scares the hell out of =
every caver,=20
I know it does me. I can't remember the last time I checked the =
condition of a knot when passing a main line splice? I know I won't =
soon=20
pass one again without inspection.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Dell thanks for your time and=20
posts,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">JR=20
=
Gordon</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><
/FONT></DIV></=
BODY></HTML>
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