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Reply-To: "Dell Motes" <dell@di*.co*>
From: "Dell Motes" <dell@di*.co*>
To: <dburlage@i-*.co*>
Subject: Forward to list
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:01:19 -0400
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Gordon and List,
A subsequent dive was made upstream with a few more facts to add to the =
scenario.
The two reels that had been deployed were in good working order, neither =
was jammed. The third was just laying there, in a stowed position.=20
The 900' permanent line marker arrow (upstream of the restriction) was =
facing INTO the cave, obviously the wrong direction. This explained some =
of the profile on the Niteks. It appears they made more than one trip =
back upstream to verify their position, because of mirror images on the =
profile.
We have no way of knowing who did this, nor do we expect any one to own =
up to it. There were several breaks and repairs in this area, and =
someone made a hasty mistake in arrow placement.=20
Had this not been in the wrong direction, they may have made it out, =
even with the other problems they had. This added to confusion and =
burned up valuable time they did not have.
The permanent line did not blow downstream, it was tied off right at the =
downstream side of the restriction. They were tangled up in the slack =
that had been in the restriction.=20
They did the line searches, they stuck together, they perished together.
This is still a wake up call as to what can happen.=20
You have to use MORE caution when in such a high traffic cave, for =
situations exactly like this. A large number of teams had been through =
this area since the initial line patch. No one took the time to do =
rectify this, and it became just one factor in many on this fatality. =20
You have to be constantly aware of all aspects, no matter how remote or =
unlikely they may seem.=20
You have to make every dive like it's exploration, alert and absorbing =
every thing you see and do.
A permanent guideline is just a convenience, not a crutch. How many =
people would use their reels with different size line and full of =
patches ?? Very few, I believe.
How good would your tie-offs and placement be if you knew you were =
coming out in zero visibility? I'd say very good, or you get killed or =
you wouldn't get very far, one of the two. =20
What kind of restrictions would you go through if you were the first =
EVER to be
there? Let me tell from experience, you consider very hard just how bad =
you want to see what's on the other side.=20
Line arrows are cheap, but how many people deploy their own when they =
see anything questionable? Your more likely to see them used in the =
middle of nowhere, as a personal goal or "look I've been this far".
Hell, I use arrows like Post It notes, but that doesn't mean carry 20 of =
them on your harness all lined up nice and neat for appearances only. I =
use them and remove them, very few are left in place and they are there =
for a subsequent dive.
This was preventable, not a mysterious occurrence that means revamping =
cave diving techniques or line size.
I'm glad to see that some good may come out of such a tragedy, because =
several have said it scared them. Accident analysis is invaluable in =
this respect, it causes people to look at themselves and the way they =
dive.=20
Treat every dive with respect, use the techniques you've been taught and =
use them often.
You 'll get more fulfillment out of being the best you can, and above =
all else you'll stand a much better chance of surviving something like =
this.=20
Dell Motes
Dive Rite
117 W.Washington St.
Lake City, Florida 32055 =20
www.dive-rite.com
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: gordonjr <jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*>
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:09 AM
Subject: Madison Blue Fatalities
Dell,
=20
Did the body recovery team produced a formal "accident analysis =
report" for the deaths at Madison Blue, and if so could you please post =
it to the lists. Additionally, if there is any further info on this =
accident that you think might be educational or preventative, such as =
John Strohm's question about the type of knot, could you also please =
forward that to the lists.=20
=20
I hope this accident scares the hell out of every caver, I know it =
does me. I can't remember the last time I checked the condition of a =
knot when passing a main line splice? I know I won't soon pass one again =
without inspection.
=20
Dell thanks for your time and posts,
=20
JR Gordon
Los Angeles/Akumal
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gordon and List,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>A subsequent dive was made upstream =
with a few=20
more facts to add to the scenario.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The two reels that had been deployed =
were in=20
good working order, neither was jammed. The third was just laying there, =
in a=20
stowed position. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The 900' permanent line marker arrow =
(upstream=20
of the restriction) was facing INTO the cave, obviously the wrong =
direction.=20
This explained some of the profile on the Niteks. It appears they made =
more than=20
one trip back upstream to verify their position, because of mirror =
images on the=20
profile.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>We have
no way =
of knowing=20
who did this, nor do we expect any one to own up to it. There were =
several=20
breaks and repairs in this area, and someone made a hasty mistake in =
arrow=20
placement. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Had this not been in the wrong =
direction, they=20
may have made it out, even with the other problems they had. This added =
to=20
confusion and burned up valuable time they did not have.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>The
permanent =
line did not=20
blow downstream, it was tied off right at the downstream side of the=20
restriction. They were tangled up in the slack that had been in the =
restriction.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>They did
the =
line searches,=20
they stuck together, they perished together.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This is still a wake up call as to what can happen.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You have to use MORE caution when in such a high =
traffic cave,=20
for situations exactly like this. A large number of teams had been =
through this=20
area since the initial line patch. No one took the time to do rectify =
this, and=20
it became just one factor in many on this fatality. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You have to be constantly aware of all aspects, no =
matter how=20
remote or unlikely they may seem. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You have to make every dive like it's exploration, =
alert and=20
absorbing every thing you see and do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A permanent guideline is just a convenience, not a =
crutch. How=20
many people would use their reels with different size line and full of =
patches=20
?? Very few, I believe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How good would your tie-offs and placement be if you =
knew=20
you were coming out in zero visibility? I'd say very good, or you =
get=20
killed or you wouldn't get very far, one of the two. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>What kind of restrictions would you go through if =
you were the=20
first EVER to be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>there? Let me tell from experience, you =
consider very=20
hard just how bad you want to see what's on the other side. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Line arrows are cheap, but how many people deploy =
their own=20
when they see anything questionable? Your more likely to see them used =
in the=20
middle of nowhere, as a personal goal or "look I've been this=20
far".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hell, I use arrows like Post It notes, but that =
doesn't mean=20
carry 20 of them on your harness all lined up nice and neat for =
appearances=20
only. I use them and remove them, very few are left in place and they =
are there=20
for a subsequent dive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This was preventable, not a mysterious occurrence =
that means=20
revamping cave diving techniques or line size.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm glad to see that some good may come out of such =
a tragedy,=20
because several have said it scared them. Accident analysis is =
invaluable in=20
this respect, it causes people to look at themselves and the way =
they=20
dive. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Treat every dive with respect, use the techniques =
you've been=20
taught and use them often.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You 'll get more fulfillment out of being the best =
you can,=20
and above all else you'll stand a much better chance of surviving =
something like=20
this. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dell Motes<BR>Dive Rite<BR>117 W.Washington =
St.<BR>Lake City,=20
Florida 32055 <BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.dive-rite.com">www.dive-rite.com</A><BR> &n=
bsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B>gordonjr <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*">jrgordonsenior@email.msn.com=
</A>><BR><B>To:=20
</B><A
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> =
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
</B>Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:09 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Madison
Blue=20
Fatalities<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px"></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Dell,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Did the body recovery team =
produced a=20
formal "accident analysis report" for the deaths at =
Madison Blue,=20
and if so could you please post it to the lists. Additionally, if =
there is=20
any further info on this accident that you think might be =
educational or=20
preventative, such as John Strohm's question about the type of knot, =
could=20
you also please forward that to the lists. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I hope this accident scares the hell out of every caver, I know =
it does=20
me. I can't remember the last time I checked the condition of a knot =
when=20
passing a main line splice? I know I won't soon pass one again =
without=20
inspection.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Dell thanks for your time and=20
posts,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">JR Gordon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Los=20
=
Angeles/Akumal</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><
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