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>>Oh, my sense of humor? It's well satisfied by the -dozens- of emails I have gotten saying that lurkers are pissing in their pants laughing at folks that are getting a dose of their own medicine. Hey, it's -fun-! Easy too.<< I always wondered about this. The first few times I heard it, I was suspicious as to the existence of those timid lurkers, but either Dave Sutton has posted to this list under other names in the past (no, Dave, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here), or these lurkers _do_ exist. Dave hasn't said it in so many words, but the previous ones have - that these Lurkers are too afraid to voice an opinion, and merely content themselves with sending participants in the battles private emails, telling them to keep up the good work. WTF, guys? Nobody from the list is hunting down the participants (are they?)! If you think something is outta hand, wade in and say so! Dave did. I disagree with him on quite a few things, (but have only mentioned those that I feel competent enough to voice an opinion on) others disagree with him, more. As for the tone of the debate, that gets so many riled, it bugged my, too, at first. But when people die, others tend to get rather passionate about safety. While some people on this list may need remedial manners education, I can't say as their anger is baseless. So what, big deal! We get an exchange of ideas on the list, and maybe some of us learn something! Quit hiding, fer pete's sake. No one's gonna bite ya! Rich L ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Sutton <pilots@na*.ne*> To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 11:52 AM Subject: Re: Well Said! > > > > >Oh, come on, Dave, you've hit Techdiver like gangbusters and I think it's > >time to be introspective here. > > > > Ok. Go look into the mirror and be introspective. > I think that you'll see that not all people worship > at the alter of WKPP, and that lots of your > "carved in stone" techniques are not all that > carved, and will inevitably be replaced by other > techniques. The guys that are developing the > newer techniques are now considered the > radicals, just like we were considered radical > for developing what you call 'Technical Diving' > when PADI was cheapening the sport by > turning out legions of equipment buying wannabees > that were mostly crappy divers. It's just turning > full circle. Now the 'wannabees' see that we have > developed a 'legitimate' sport and they can satisfly > their equipment buying needs with off the shelf stuff > and cookie cutter techniques that make them think > that they can skip over the experience building phase > and go dive the Doria their second year in the sport. > The result is obvious. > > Bottom line: 15 years ago I was an "outlaw". I was > diving essentially the same techniques that are > now called "DIR" and "Mainstream". Now that > I'm pushing the envelope again, the 'system' > (Now people like you instead of PADI) are calling > me and ours 'outlaws' again. The more things change > the more they stay the same. > > > > >You have been very critical of other's attitudes and rhetorical technique > on > >this list and I think it is time that you come under the same magnifying > >glass. > > > Be my guest. > > > > >My observations so far: > > > >-You have absolutely no sense of humor whatsoever, which to me is essential > >on both this list and on long boat rides. > > Oh, my sense of humor? It's well satisfied by the -dozens- > of emails I have gotten saying that lurkers are pissing in their pants > laughing at folks that are getting a dose of their own medicine. > Hey, it's -fun-! Easy too. > > > >After all this is a sport and we > >are trying to have some fun. Aren't we? > > Sounds like my first post, which was "Where is the Fun, guys". > But -this- time it's weenies like ya'll that are coming out on > the bottom of the rhetoric pile and now it's not fun anymore, eh? > Ok to bully, not OK to be found lacking in intellectual ammo > or in all-important -experience-. > > > >-You claim poverty on issues like renting a boat yet boast loudly about > your > >jets and rebreathers. > > > First, my airplanes make money, they don't lose it. > Second, I'm not claiming poverty at all. I merely said > that I'm not going to charter my own boat week after > week, 52 weeks a year WX permitting so I can > dive exactly the way that theory might want me to, > not when I can dive within 99% of the theoretical > maximum by simply paying my fifty bucks and > going on the charter. It might surprise you that we > dive -weekly- and not -yearly-. > > Now, in keeping with -real- suggestions, VS whacko ones: > Suggesting to me that I charter my own boat all of the > time is like me suggesting to you that you shitcan your > (obslolete) open circuit gear and buy a rebreather and learn > how to use it. Open circuit is obsolete. The only justification > for keeping it around is financial. It takes an investment in > money and (mainly) time to become qualified to use one. > When that obstacle is met, you have a system that is so far > ahead of the open circuit stuff that it's painfull to watch a > guy wear -4- bottles on the Doria (with the result that > he drowns) when I can strap on a rig that offers me 8 hours > more or less of narcosis free gas and that allows constant > PP02 nitrox deco starting at 130-ish feet and then 02 deco > from 20 feet. This while carrying enough OC gas for bailout > and deco too. Open circuit is a compromise paid for in > drag and weight. But I'm not bragging, nor am I saying that > you should throw all of your crap in the dumpster and quit > diving your (obsolete) gear. You make your compromise > (open circuit) and I'll make mine (Charter boat). > > > >-You moan and groan on the inflexibility of the DIR system yet profess no > >flexibility in "your" style of personal preference. > > > The emailer runs a day behind so I'll just say that what you > have written has already been addressed in a post that > you'll get before you get this one. I'll readdress the point if needed. > > > >-You recommend oxygen rebreathers for deco yet offer no comparison at all > to > >open circuit rigs insofar as cost vs. benefits and availability. This is > > > Cost: Who cares. You want me to charter a private boat > all of the time, so cost is no object. eh? If you build it > you -might- spend a hundred bucks. But then you'd need > to have enough savvy to build it, eh? > > Benefit: All the 02 I want for as long as I want it in a package > weighing only a few pounds. > > Availability: Make it or buy it. Making it is not hard but is > not wannabee stuff either. Brazing high pressure tubing > between the blowout disk ports of K valves to make ideal > manifolds in the old days was not wannabee stuff either. > Now you can buy it off the shelf and we have wannabees > in all quadrants. Buy it: Buy a Russian IDA-59 for a grand. > Buy a LAR-V for between $1500 and $3500. Buy a > Biopak 45 and convert it. Build it: Take an inner tube, > two rolls of toilet paper, a mouthpiece, some sofnolime, > an old dive-light cannister and have at it. It might take > two hours to make. You'll have a copy of Will's > TP-2000, which I prefer to call the "Ass Wipe Special". > Or you can just buy a CIS Lunar and have 02 deco built into > your main rig and carry a tiny bailout rebreather for those > bad loop days. It's not available in the wannabee catalog, > though. You'll need to wait to buy one from Dive Rite. > > Talk about drag reduction and redundancy, rebreathers are > the way to go. OC is going to be a dead issue 15 years > from now. Ya'll be arguing about the bad old days just > like yer second guessing things like Billy Dean's partner > getting zapped on the Doria way back when. Deep air > was the technique of the time. Now it's dead. OC is the > technique of this time. In 15 years it'll be dead. For me > it's dead now. You'll never be looking over your shoulder > to find me following mainstream techniques. > > > >-You selectively filter out parts of posts you don't care to comment on and > >ratchet jaw endless on the parts you care to comment on. > > > Much of what is written here is unworthy of comment. Much > of it requires no comment at all. > > > >-I see very few "well I tried the canister light, but decided to use a > >handle light for this or that reason". The part that is missing is "I tried > >it" before you start condemning it. > > > I built and tried cannister lights 15 years ago and found them > lacking. I have never been happy with a strong wire bolted to > my ass at one end and with a big snagger on the other end. > Works fine in a cave. What happens when I fall off the ladder > on a dive-boat and get the damned light-head wrapped > around the post? Now I'm hanging face-down and getting the > shit kicked out of me while being hanged by my own light. > No thanks. I'm rethinking this now. I'll adapt a light and use QD's > on the cord to satisfy both needs. I tried it 15 years ago, long before > you probably were diving, and I'll revisit this for my own rig > within a week, at most. > > > >Now don't get me wrong, you have made some good points but if you want to > >won over by skeptics like me you need to address the above issues. > > > Done. Read 'em and weep. > > > See ya, > > > Dave Sutton > > > > > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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