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List, !!Warning!! Long (pissed off at George email), delete if you are not interested. Dave Sutton, It's nice to see somebody with obviously a lot more experience in the dive industry, then George and friends, speak his mind. You show that diving can be a multifaceted environment. After listening to George and crew, one would start to believe that anybody's chances of surviving a dive non-Hogarthian are slim to none. I have been diving for over 20 years with all types of configurations and did my first cave dives before George was cavern certified. To have a peon like George tell me that my opinions have no business being on the techdiver list are both insulting and humorous at the same time. If GI and company were correct in their description of everything non-hogarthian or non-Wkpp being life threatening we would see a humongous increase in the death rate of divers. There are thousands of tech-type dives each year with thousands of so called stroke rigs and a very minuscule amount of people are injured as a result of their so called personal preference. It is very disappointing in this sport that many of the players are not able to disseminate knowledge in a reasonable and civilized fashion. You make the point that George or similar types would not make good dive buddies due to their actions on this forum. I would agree, however many of George's friends have emailed me privately and told me that he is a pussycat face to face. I think that if his persona was similar to that of his kirvine email address the only friends and followers he would have would be masochistic wannabee's. I have met three of the Wkpp group in person and they don't come across that way. It is a shame that many Wkpp members and wannabees on this list follow George's vociferous lead and believe that their dives are the only one's that count. In a recent post to Tom Mount George alluded to Wkpp dives being similar to commercial diving. Well George you have got nothing on commercial divers when it comes to sat. times, difficulty of working dives and dangerous environments. The longest cave traverse I have done without a scooter is 5,000 ft. and that doesn't even compare to the difficulty of some of the dives that commercial divers here in CA. and elsewhere perform. George just because you were bullied by many of the dive leaders when you were growing up gives you no right to throw out personal attacks against all emails that come your way. Look back at your old posts and how you used to cry about the divers with the records and how they always claimed that their way was the best because they held the records. You are now no different in character than those that you used to chastise. You are creating a competitive environment which can only lead to injury as others attempt to do some of the insanely stupid things you have done. ie.18,000 ft. cave dives. Recently I mentioned a sub 400' dive and you referred to it as a macho undertaking. Are you trying to tell me that your seriously deep cave penetrations aren't such by definition. George in my opinion you are the epitome of what you criticize: a semi illiterate (before you found spell check), hypocritical, lying, back stabbing, crybaby, Machiavellian wannabee stroke, but since my opinion doesn't matter this shouldn't bother you at all. If many of you feel that I am wasting bandwidth I apologize, but I feel it is necessary to take a stand against a sanctimonious prick like George. Safe and fun diving to everyone else who suffered through this email, Greg Kuiper Dave Sutton wrote: > -----Original Message----- > >From: Daniel L. Crawford <diverdan@ac*.mo*.ne*> > >You have a few brain lesions to many or what? Sheesh, you come onto the > >list and start spouting off. Have you seen a neurologist lately? > > Greetings to all, > > I've been lurking for a long time and am just sick of > seeing George and syncophants bullying people. This > is supposed to be a forum for -informed- and -polite- > discussion of -technique-, not a pulpit for a few to bully > others who disagree on a technical basis with the conclusions > of others, not should it be a forum for -anyone- to stand up and > shout (rudely at that) that they, and only they, dive according > to the very word of god and that the rest of us are all worthless > scum. Boy...... > > I've been too busy -doing it- to waste time -talking about it- > but enough is enough. Playground bullies need to be > put in their places now and then. > > I see from your post that you, as well, resort to ad-hominum > attacks (look it up). This is generally the last bastion of the > intellectually bankrupt in conduct of debates: when you cannot > attack the idea, or present a rational and thoughtful argument > using well reasoned lines of logical construction the debater > resorts to attacking the person. It's worth a deduction of points > in formal debate. Perhaps you should take a course in rhetoric, > reasoning, and logic. They are available from any local college. > Should you be willing to offer some technical points for discussion, > I'll be very happy to debate. > > Here is a starting sample of what I expected to see here when I began > lurking: > > Question: Why do NJ Wreck divers all use 1/4 manila reels when the rest of > the tech diving world uses lighter synthetic line and smaller diameter > reels? > > My answer: Because we do our deco wearing 1/4 inch 3 finger mitts > and while it is true that a light line is strong enough to hold the diver, > it is nearly impossible to hold onto the light line for a long deco with > mitts, > nor is it possible to tie knots in lighter line with the heavy mitts on. Our > technique > for deco if we cannot locate the anchor line is to send up our manila on a > 50 > pound lift-bag, and then hang from the annchored bag. Plus, we feel that the > manila, being biodegradable, does not pose as much of a long-lasting > entanglement > hazard to other divers who might visit the wreck later as would synthetic > line since there > is no practical way to retrieve the line post-deco, so we simply cut it off. > Lastly, > we are more-or-less sessile (meaning that we don't move much on the bottom) > so we do not worry as much as a cave diver might about drag swimming, nor > since the majority of our diving is not real 'overhead enviromnent' stuff we > are not as worried about streamlined profile as a cave diver might be". > > Now, you get to add -your- comments based on -your- experience, and > you might learn something from me, and I might learn something from you. > > Nice, eh?? You might try it sometime. it's what this list should be -all- > about. > > Answers like "You are an asshole for using such a stupid technique. You > and all of your Jersey Jerks should be taught by the WKPP guys how > to -really- dive" is not acceptable. If you tried blue-water diving up here > using cave techniques, you'd be dead. You -might- survive the fairly > benign conditions of the summer, but come February when the air temperature > on the boat is 15, the water is 32, and your gear freezes to a sheet of ice > while > you climb the ladder and you'd be toast. (BTW, I guess that 2 years spent in > the Antarctic doing this stuff means I don't know shit about cold water, > either...) > > Once again, I challenge the _entire group_ to refrain from writing > what you would not be brave enought to say to a mans face. It's > a sign of living in a civilized society to play well with others. > > Frankly, it's sadly obvious that very few here are divers. The divers > that I have associated with over the last 25 or so years would be > _ashamed_ to act like this group. > > Dave Sutton > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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