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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1721.185D8548 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Preach on Tom, you hit the nail on the head. Greg Kuiper -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mount [mailto:TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*] Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 4:13 PM To: georget Irvine Cc: Jim Mims; "Decompression List"; a n; Bill Mee Subject: Re: A question about who is the mouth George One thing is true You sure have a great love affair with yourself. George you are so full of lies and BS that you cannot even tell when you are telling the truth yourself. then again that is perhaps based on your definition of truth which is "truth is the stated word of George at the moment that is subject to change at the next moment" Like your statement of a photo dive on the sneak mix, boy did a lot of people laugh about that one even many of your present team mates know the truth on that one. Sally ward was closed and those were the midnight sneak dives you had been using EAN 25 on those dives. Or your doing mix in the 80's wow all the guys that dived with you on Mims boat in the early 90's roared over than one. You definitely do a lot to vouch for your creditability each time you print your current versions of the truth as you see it. As long as you are in name calling contest George you are the biggest liar , biggest cheater( like as you described to me on your boat one day, when you gave the example of wrestling against a superior competior and you won by cheating, to you winning is all that counts regardless of how it is done) that has ever been involved in tech diving. You have a big mouth on internet and become a real pussy cat when talking with people. You consider yourself a SCUBA God and the rest of us consider you a *** well you know what. Yes, you have done some big dives no one takes that from you but other than the dives you have done there is absobulutely nothing to respect you for. Many of your team mates such as JJ are greatly respected by myself and the community as they are a part of the community and contribute to it. They are real explorers who explore based on their desire to discover things. In my opnion You explore to overcome your fears thus all the tension you always have to release. You can see this right around the time a dive is planned. Like a Like a guard dog you accomplish dives, but guard dogs come in two categories fear biters and good dogs. The fear biters are quite good but unlike the 'good dogs" are unpredictable and may bite out of fear when it is not needed or under enough pressure turn tail and run. From your own post and description of some of your dives you definitely appear to fall in the fear biter category. It appears as if You also cannot stand it if you do not have100% control of anyone around you You turn on all who you cannot control even some of your former role models. Your attitude and belligerent statements make you the most disgusting human to ever call themselves a diver. George in my opnion you are just a down right disgusting, vulgar, rude, excuse for a manor should I say a Sheila as the Ozzies have identified you. You tell lies about anyone you do not control and even make threatening calls. you have tried to discredit anyone else who does any other form of diving or even other cave divers. you cannot accept the fact that others do things. Lets see in your public cries over the safe distance of emails you have threatened to shoot people (Tony Satterfield for one) and to do all kinds of violent actions toward numerous others. Gee I have not seen any of these people run from you and it is funny how when you are face to face with them suddenly you become very friendly and soft spoken, Don't bother replying as all I will do is hit the delete key and don't threaten me on the list as you and I both (and most other people as well) know that is only your internet bravado .... Respectfully yours, Tom Mount CEO IANTD World HQ http://www.iantd.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*> To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*> Cc: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Decompression List" <deco@de*.or*> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 3:00 PM Subject: Re: A question about who is the mouth > Tommy, you are once again showing exactly where you are coming from. It > really is perfect that a stroke like you who thinks the worst of the > worst are great divers thinks I am not much of a diver. I am sure that > makes a lot of sense to a lot of people. I am sure everyone believes > you. > > You have no idea. Jeez, just think what I could do if I were any good > like some of your all time greats, like that dead whale the cops fished > out of the Gulfstream last year after he and two others killed > themseleves in Palm Beach. I forgot the word you used to describe his > great skill. > > In my opinion, you and your organization represent the absolute worst in > this sport. You have a limited grasp of anything scientific or mathmatic > in my experience with you, you are illiterate, dyslexic, malapropic to > the point of embarrassment, ignorant, and basicly one of the single > stupidest human beings I have ever met in my life, to put it nicely. > ' > In addition, you are a blubbering goob full of martial arts bravado and > baloney ( like the Tai Chi breathing) , concocted bafflegab, foundless > discombobulation based on hearsay, half truths, mysticism and slop, and > as Sheck Exley told me, you never did anything but talk, even when you > were thirty years old ( your current "excuse" for never having done > anything but talk is your age). He told me this in front of witnesses, > and he said that is why he and the rest of that era called you Tom > "Mouth". He also said that the absolute worst "stroke" of all time was > your pal Jim Lockwood. The other guy who told me the "Mouth" nickname > was Bill Main. You seem to forget that I dove with Sheck for the last > four months of his life. Ask Zumrick or Main or one of those guys. I > would love to take credit for naming you the "mouth", but it was not me. > > Tommy, you can discuss my diving when you or any of your BOA or anyone > who subscibes to your black hole of abject stupidity can duplicate ANY > of it anytime anyplace. Your little buddies at the usdct spent over a > million dollars trying to do better than me but they were unable to do > in 90 days of diving what I did in one, and what JJ and I went back and > did in one more. > > Funny that anyone who is serious sbout this game eventually realizes > that you are "chopped liver", and I am the real thing.Everyone knows I > am not in the dive business, that I run a project that basicly disallows > everything you teach ( and has the track record to prove it) , and it > seems that with everyone sooner or later, what I am saying and doing > makes the most sense. In the meantime, you keep right one establishing > just how right I am with every thing you say and do. > > It is pretty funny that the guy who runs the project with the longest > running best track record in diving that has made the most contribution > to this sport for free is the one and only person whom you try to malign > . You are real credible , Tommy, and everyone can see your personal > hubris is driving this insanity. Anyone who listens to a word you say is > kidding themselves, in my opinion. > > You need to get out of the business. You are a disgrace. > > Tom Mount wrote: > > > > George > > I did not say anything about 20 feet. We do use EAN 80 at 30 feet on some of > > the tables. PO2 at 30 feet is 1.53 ata vs po2 at 20 feet is 1.61 ata on > > oxygen. > > > > On EAN 80 you do not reach 1.6 until you are at 33 feet. > > > > George, I'm rather tired of your calling me mouth crap (and it is a > > downright lie that Sheck said that and you know it as Sheck and I were > > friends) > > > > You may be the record holder on cave dives ( I guess that must be your > > definition of success)but you certainly are not the best of divers and most > > of us really do not care what you do or do not do Sheila(as some of the > > Ozzies refer to George as) > > > > Our concern is safety for training dives and dives that the majority of > > people do. We feel the tables we use provide this. > > > > To the deco list I do not normally engage in Georges ravings and will not > > subject you to these childish games George likes to play in the future. My > > apologies for this current reply. > > > > Respectfully yours, > > Tom Mount > > CEO IANTD World HQ > > http://www.iantd.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*> > > To: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*> > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; > > "Decompression List" <deco@de*.or*> > > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 11:17 AM > > Subject: Re: A question about training practices > > > > > Bill, to make matters worse, Mouth is telling this guy to use the 80% at > > > 30 feet due to the higher po2. Well he just told us it was "safer" at 20 > > > due to the lower po2? What gives? The fact is the while the 30 foot stop > > > shortens a tad, the oxygen window at 20, 15, 10 or any other depth on 80 > > > is pitiful and amounts to wasting your time. > > > > > > As you point out, if the deco is done correctly below this level, the > > > rest is merely effective management of the o2 window with the increased > > > gradient for speedy egress. > > > > > > Mouth has gone to great lengths to do anything that is other than what > > > the most successful project in diving has learned. He just can't stand > > > the fact that we are the leaders in this kind of diving and he is not. > > > > > > Also, the what they are doing with the fill pressures is actually to use > > > STEEL low prssure stages and then fill them to 3000 area, or whatever > > > they can to give them their 80%. The original genesis of Mouth's 80/20 > > > stupidity was to get more gas for his hooves and to keep them from > > > toxing while bobbing and weaving at deco. > > > > > > > > > Bill Mee wrote: > > > > > > > > >>When I have doplered EAN 50 we get significant bubbles, while we do > > use > > > > EAN > > > > >>50 in advanced eANx we prefer teh 80 for technical programs it is > > cleaner > > > > >>fro a bubble standpoint > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > > > The use EANX 50 by itself has nothing to do with bubbles. The question > > is > > > > what were you doing before you got to the EANX 50 gas change? Like what > > > > gases were you breathing and what were your actual bottom times? > > > > > > > > It is well known that the latter phase of the decompression is > > essentially > > > > worthless if you have not performed the deeper stops correctly, have not > > > > breathed the right gases for the correct times etc., etc., etc. and all > > you > > > > are really doing is treating the symptoms. > > > > > > > > We all know that you are trying to justify the use of 80/20 at the > > expense > > > > of doing the right right thing. The original reason for using the 80/20 > > was > > > > to get more cubic feet of gas in the smaller 30 and 40 cf cylinders > > because > > > > you are running them up to 3500 psi instead of the pressure from the > > > > commercially supplied oxygen bottles. May I call your attention to the > > > > original Baker's Dozen reasons for not using 80/20. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>When I have doplered EAN 50 we get significant bubbles, while we do > > use > > > > EAN > > > > >>50 in advanced eANx we prefer teh 80 for technical programs it is > > cleaner > > > > >>fro a bubble standpoint > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>EAN 50 still provided significantly longer deco schedules and if you > > > > >doppler > > > > >>the diver you get more bubbles on longer dives. > > > > > > > > What ? You have got to be kidding me. You mean we have been doing the > > wrong > > > > way all these years in the WKPP? > > > > Thanks for tellings us belatedly. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>I have had great success in the use of EAN 80 and EAN 70 on normoxic > > mix. > > > > I > > > > >>do not know of any bends following these schedules nor any tox > > incidents. > > > > > > > > >>There are several tox incidents on o2 at 6 m which was the original > > reason > > > > >>we went to eAN 80 > > > > > > > > Sure and several people who have been killed crossing the street were > > > > wearing red shirts on Friday the 13th. I always wear blue shirts to > > > > prevent this. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>Respectfully yours, > > > > >>Tom Mount > > > > >>CEO IANTD World HQ > > > > >>http://www.iantd.com > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Originally posted by George, 9/18/97: > > > > > > > > ----------- > > > > A (BAKER'S) DOZEN REASONS WHY WE DO NOT USE 80/20 > > > > > > > > 1) This gas was introduced in an effort to overcome the inability of > > > > unqualified student "tech" divers to control their buoyancy in open > > > > water, and is as such is yet one more concession to doing things in a > > > > convoluted fashion to offset a self- inflicted set of problems brought > > > > on by the "doing it wrong" thinking that pervades diving today. > > > > > > > > 2) A heavy sea is not a problem for a deco stop if it is not posing a > > > > lung-loading problem. Look at your depth guage in a heavy sea and "see" > > > > for yourself what the changes are - insignificant, and if they are not, > > > > you should either not have been diving or incurring a decompression > > > > liability of this magnitude in the first place. In the event of a change > > > > in conditions during the dive, see below where the 80/20 becomes a > > > > liability rather than an assett. > > > > > > > > 3) In the interest of using a standardized set of gases for which you > > > > can permanently mark your bottles , it is a poor concession to inability > > > > to sacrifice the benfits of pure O2 to accomodate a real or percived > > > > lack of skill - learn to dive before taking up techdiving. > > > > > > > > 4) In this same interest you will find that when you graduate to real > > > > diving, as in caves, you will not want to accellerate your ppo2 at > > > > lower depths while still being faced with a long decompression at > > > > shallower depths, and making bizarre mixes to do this is a dangerous > > > > mistake (just like the fantasy of holding an accellerated ppo2 on a > > > > rebreather throughout a deco). I am anticipating the thinking that the > > > > 80/20 crowd would then go to an additional oxygen in cave without > > > > accounting for total exposure, and subject themselves to the risk of tox > > > > in the final deco steps. Tox you do not get out of - bends you do. > > > > > > > > 5) The 80/20 mix is in fact totally useless and contraindicated as a > > > > deco gas. At thirty feet it is only a 1.52 ppo2 ( the real 1.6 ppo2 > > > > gas would be 84/16) and as such does not either provide the right > > > > oxygen window, nor does it does it work as well as pure oxygen without > > > > an inert gas at any depth. The gas mixing in your lungs has already > > > > lowerd the effective ppo2 enough to prevent spiking at 20 feet anyway > > > > with the use of pure oxygen - in other words, we aer dealing with a > > > > simplisitc misunderstanding here, or "old wives tale" that is typical in > > > > diving. > > > > > > > > 6) If 100% oxygen is a percieved buoyancy control risk at 20 feet, then > > > > why is the same ppo2 ( intended) not a risk at 30 feet? This shows the > > > > total lack of reasonable logic involved in the decision to use this gas, > > > > as well as a lack of understanding of the whole picture ( see the rest > > > > of this discussion). > > > > > > > > 7) Along those lines, all we hear is howling about "oxygen cleaning" > > > > above 40% mixtures, and dive shop proprietors on here complaining about > > > > scuba tanks with oxygen in them being filled in their shops. With a > > > > pure oxygen system, the tank only ever gets filled with oxygen from > > > > oxygen tanks, not from every dive shop compressor it sees. Again , this > > > > shows the total inconsistency of agency thinking, and reveals that the > > > > true reason for this gas is to pretend to lower liability for teaching > > > > incompetents to dive, which is bull, and to attempt to accrue some > > > > inventive accomplishemts to the dive agency pundits who themseleves > > > > prove that they do no real diving by making this recommendation > > > > in the first place. This is like the colored regs, the stages on either > > > > side, the quick-release buckle, and the poodle jacket: nonsense of the > > > > most obvious nature developped through one-dimesional thinking by those > > > > whose universe of understanding is not only severly limited, but blinded > > > > by the hubris of not being the "inventor" of the techniques that work. > > > > > > > > 8) Any perceived decompression benefit of using a higher ppo2 at 30 > > > > feet with 80/20 is then given back by the lowered ppo2 at 20 feet, not > > > > to mention the fact that the presence of the inert gas in the breathing > > > > mixture defeats the purpose of using oxygen in the first place see > > > > the Physiology and Medicine of Diving) . The ppo2 of 80/20 at 20 feet > > > > is 1.28, not much of an oxygen window, and at 10 feet it is 1.04 - > > > > useless for deco. To make matters worse, you can not get out from your > > > > 30 foot stop in an emergency ( not doing the other stops) on the 80/20 > > > > mix without really risking a type 2 hit. > > > > > > > > 9) This is a dangerous method to achieve a greater total volume of gas > > > > for the bad breathers (another obvious reason the gas is in vogue), who > > > > should not be incurring these decos, and even that benefit of having > > > > more gas is lost since it is breathed at 30 feet, and then has to last > > > > for the other stops. The fact is that gas is effecively saved by using > > > > the lower deco gas up to this point, relying on the pressure gradient > > > > to both achieve the deco and provide a break from high the previous > > > > gas's higher PPO2 prior to going to pure oxygen where the spike could > > > > be a problem on an extreme exposure without an adequate low ppo2 break ( > > > > again this shows that the 80% user is a neopyte diver with no real > > > > experience or understanding of the true risks of these dives) . > > > > > > > > 10) The 20-30% longer 30 foot time on the lower ppo2 is not only > > > > overcome on the pure oxygen at the next stops, the breaks do not come > > > > into play until the initial good dose of pure oxygen has been absorbed, > > > > since you are not spiking from a high pervious dose without a break > > > > that is effectively achieved on the previous gas. These things need to > > > > be understood and taught by the agencies, not some superficial > > > > convolution that is designed to obfuscate the problem rather than > > > > openly acknowledge and deal with it in a responsible fashion. > > > > > > > > 11) In an emergency situation, getting onto the pure O2 for 20 minutes > > > > or so (for long dives something approximating the bottom time or a any > > > > decent interval) would give you a real good shot at getting out of > > > > the water having missed the rest of your deco and living through it > > > > with pain hits only. You have to think these things all the way though, > > > > not go for the transparent superficial thinking of those who merely are > > > > trying to "make their mark" with some "great" idea they can call their > > > > own. The acid test is , as always, is the caliber of the divers who > > > > adopt these practices. > > > > > > > > 12) If there is some problem with your deco or you otherwise develop > > > > symptoms and need oxygen either on the surface or back in the water, it > > > > is silly to have not had it there all along. 80/20 is a joke for that > > > > purpose, unless you have asthma, in which case any accellerated oxygen > > > > mix would be a nightmare. This is again part of the "thinking it all the > > > > way through" phiosophy which is obviously mising from the 80/20 > > > > argument. > > > > > > > > 13) Only a card-carrying stroke would do somethng like this, and > > > > showing up with 80/20 is no different than wearing a sign on your back > > > > saying "I am a stroke, and have the papers to prove it". It announces to > > > > all the world that you have no clue, kind of like wearing clip-on > > > > suspenders or having dog dirt on your shoes. > > > > > > > > George Irvine > > > > Director, WKPP > > > > "Do It Right" (or don't do it at all) > > > > -- > > > > ... > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1721.185D8548 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2448.0"> <TITLE>RE: A question about who is the mouth </TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Preach on Tom, you hit the nail on the head.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Greg Kuiper</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Tom Mount [<A HREF="mailto:TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*">mailto:TOM.MOUNT@worldnet.att.net</A>]< ;/FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 4:13 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: georget Irvine</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Cc: Jim Mims; "Decompression List"; a n; Bill Mee</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: A question about who is the mouth </FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>George</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>One thing is true You sure have a great love affair with yourself.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>George you are so full of lies and BS that you cannot even tell when you are</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>telling the truth yourself. then again that is perhaps based on your</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>definition of truth which is "truth is the stated word of George at the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>moment that is subject to change at the next moment"</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Like your statement of a photo dive on the sneak mix, boy did a lot of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>people laugh about that one even many of your present team mates know the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>truth on that one. Sally ward was closed and those were the midnight sneak</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>dives you had been using EAN 25 on those dives.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Or your doing mix in the 80's wow all the guys that dived with you on Mims</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>boat in the early 90's roared over than one.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>You definitely do a lot to vouch for your creditability each time you print</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>your current versions of the truth as you see it.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>As long as you are in name calling contest George you are the biggest liar ,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>biggest cheater( like as you described to me on your boat one day, when you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>gave the example of wrestling against a superior competior and you won by</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>cheating, to you winning is all that counts regardless of how it is done)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>that has ever been involved in tech diving. You have a big</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>mouth on internet and become a real pussy cat when talking with people.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>You consider yourself a SCUBA God and the rest of us consider you a *** well</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>you know what.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Yes, you have done some big dives no one takes that from you but other than</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>the dives you have done there is absobulutely nothing to respect you for.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Many of your team mates such as JJ are greatly respected by myself and the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>community as they are a part of the community and contribute to it. They are</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>real explorers who explore based on their desire to discover things.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>In my opnion You explore to overcome your fears thus all the tension you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>always have to release. You can see this right around the time a dive is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>planned. Like a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Like a guard dog you accomplish dives, but guard dogs come in two</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>categories fear biters and good dogs.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>The fear biters are quite good but unlike the 'good</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>dogs" are unpredictable and may bite out of fear when it is not needed or</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>under enough pressure turn tail and run. From your own post and description</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>of some of your dives you definitely appear to fall in the fear biter</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>category.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>It appears as if You also cannot stand it if you do not have100% control of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>anyone around you You turn on all who you cannot control even some of your</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>former role models.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Your attitude and belligerent statements make you the most disgusting human</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>to ever call themselves a diver.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>George in my opnion you are just a down right disgusting, vulgar, rude,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>excuse for a manor should I say a Sheila as the Ozzies have identified you.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>You tell lies about anyone you do not control and even make threatening</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>calls. you have tried to discredit anyone else who does any other form of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>diving or even other cave divers. you cannot accept the fact that others do</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>things.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Lets see in your public cries over the safe distance of emails you have</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>threatened to shoot people (Tony Satterfield for one) and to do all kinds of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>violent actions toward numerous others. Gee I have not seen any of these</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>people run from you and it is funny how when you are face to face with them</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>suddenly you become very friendly and soft spoken,</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Don't bother replying as all I will do is hit the delete key and don't</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>threaten me on the list as you and I both (and most other people as well)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>know that is only your internet bravado</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>...</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Respectfully yours,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Tom Mount</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>CEO IANTD World HQ</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2><A HREF="http://www.iantd.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.iantd.com</A></FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>----- Original Message -----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Cc: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Decompression</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>List" <deco@de*.or*></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 3:00 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: A question about who is the mouth</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>> Tommy, you are once again showing exactly where you are coming from. It</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> really is perfect that a stroke like you who thinks the worst of the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> worst are great divers thinks I am not much of a diver. I am sure that</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> makes a lot of sense to a lot of people. I am sure everyone believes</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> you.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> You have no idea. Jeez, just think what I could do if I were any good</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> like some of your all time greats, like that dead whale the cops fished</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> out of the Gulfstream last year after he and two others killed</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> themseleves in Palm Beach. I forgot the word you used to describe his</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> great skill.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> In my opinion, you and your organization represent the absolute worst in</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> this sport. You have a limited grasp of anything scientific or mathmatic</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> in my experience with you, you are illiterate, dyslexic, malapropic to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the point of embarrassment, ignorant, and basicly one of the single</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> stupidest human beings I have ever met in my life, to put it nicely.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> '</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> In addition, you are a blubbering goob full of martial arts bravado and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> baloney ( like the Tai Chi breathing) , concocted bafflegab, foundless</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> discombobulation based on hearsay, half truths, mysticism and slop, and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> as Sheck Exley told me, you never did anything but talk, even when you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> were thirty years old ( your current "excuse" for never having done</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> anything but talk is your age). He told me this in front of witnesses,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> and he said that is why he and the rest of that era called you Tom</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> "Mouth". He also said that the absolute worst "stroke" of all time was</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> your pal Jim Lockwood. The other guy who told me the "Mouth" nickname</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> was Bill Main. You seem to forget that I dove with Sheck for the last</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> four months of his life. Ask Zumrick or Main or one of those guys. I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> would love to take credit for naming you the "mouth", but it was not me.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Tommy, you can discuss my diving when you or any of your BOA or anyone</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> who subscibes to your black hole of abject stupidity can duplicate ANY</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> of it anytime anyplace. Your little buddies at the usdct spent over a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> million dollars trying to do better than me but they were unable to do</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> in 90 days of diving what I did in one, and what JJ and I went back and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> did in one more.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Funny that anyone who is serious sbout this game eventually realizes</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> that you are "chopped liver", and I am the real thing.Everyone knows I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> am not in the dive business, that I run a project that basicly disallows</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> everything you teach ( and has the track record to prove it) , and it</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> seems that with everyone sooner or later, what I am saying and doing</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> makes the most sense. In the meantime, you keep right one establishing</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> just how right I am with every thing you say and do.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> It is pretty funny that the guy who runs the project with the longest</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> running best track record in diving that has made the most contribution</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> to this sport for free is the one and only person whom you try to malign</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> . You are real credible , Tommy, and everyone can see your personal</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> hubris is driving this insanity. Anyone who listens to a word you say is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> kidding themselves, in my opinion.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> You need to get out of the business. You are a disgrace.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Tom Mount wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > George</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > I did not say anything about 20 feet. We do use EAN 80 at 30 feet on</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>some of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > the tables. PO2 at 30 feet is 1.53 ata vs po2 at 20 feet is 1.61 ata on</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > oxygen.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > On EAN 80 you do not reach 1.6 until you are at 33 feet.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > George, I'm rather tired of your calling me mouth crap (and it is a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > downright lie that Sheck said that and you know it as Sheck and I were</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > friends)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > You may be the record holder on cave dives ( I guess that must be your</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > definition of success)but you certainly are not the best of divers and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>most</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > of us really do not care what you do or do not do Sheila(as some of the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Ozzies refer to George as)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Our concern is safety for training dives and dives that the majority of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > people do. We feel the tables we use provide this.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > To the deco list I do not normally engage in Georges ravings and will</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>not</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > subject you to these childish games George likes to play in the future.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>My</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > apologies for this current reply.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Respectfully yours,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Tom Mount</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > CEO IANTD World HQ</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > <A HREF="http://www.iantd.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.iantd.com</A></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > ----- Original Message -----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > To: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>;</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > "Decompression List" <deco@de*.or*></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 11:17 AM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Subject: Re: A question about training practices</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Bill, to make matters worse, Mouth is telling this guy to use the 80%</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>at</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > 30 feet due to the higher po2. Well he just told us it was "safer" at</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>20</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > due to the lower po2? What gives? The fact is the while the 30 foot</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>stop</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > shortens a tad, the oxygen window at 20, 15, 10 or any other depth on</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>80</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > is pitiful and amounts to wasting your time.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > As you point out, if the deco is done correctly below this level, the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > rest is merely effective management of the o2 window with the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>increased</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > gradient for speedy egress.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Mouth has gone to great lengths to do anything that is other than what</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > the most successful project in diving has learned. He just can't stand</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > the fact that we are the leaders in this kind of diving and he is not.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Also, the what they are doing with the fill pressures is actually to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>use</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > STEEL low prssure stages and then fill them to 3000 area, or whatever</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > they can to give them their 80%. The original genesis of Mouth's 80/20</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > stupidity was to get more gas for his hooves and to keep them from</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > toxing while bobbing and weaving at deco.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > Bill Mee wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>When I have doplered EAN 50 we get significant bubbles, while we</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>do</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > use</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > EAN</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>50 in advanced eANx we prefer teh 80 for technical programs it is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > cleaner</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>fro a bubble standpoint</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > Tom,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > The use EANX 50 by itself has nothing to do with bubbles. The</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>question</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > what were you doing before you got to the EANX 50 gas change? Like</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>what</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > gases were you breathing and what were your actual bottom times?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > It is well known that the latter phase of the decompression is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > essentially</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > worthless if you have not performed the deeper stops correctly, have</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>not</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > breathed the right gases for the correct times etc., etc., etc. and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>all</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > are really doing is treating the symptoms.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > We all know that you are trying to justify the use of 80/20 at the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > expense</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > of doing the right right thing. The original reason for using the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>80/20</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > was</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > to get more cubic feet of gas in the smaller 30 and 40 cf cylinders</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > because</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > you are running them up to 3500 psi instead of the pressure from the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > commercially supplied oxygen bottles. May I call your attention to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > original Baker's Dozen reasons for not using 80/20.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>When I have doplered EAN 50 we get significant bubbles, while we</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>do</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > use</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > EAN</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>50 in advanced eANx we prefer teh 80 for technical programs it is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > cleaner</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>fro a bubble standpoint</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>EAN 50 still provided significantly longer deco schedules and if</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >doppler</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>the diver you get more bubbles on longer dives.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > What ? You have got to be kidding me. You mean we have been doing</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > wrong</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > way all these years in the WKPP?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > Thanks for tellings us belatedly.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>I have had great success in the use of EAN 80 and EAN 70 on</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>normoxic</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > mix.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>do not know of any bends following these schedules nor any tox</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > incidents.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>There are several tox incidents on o2 at 6 m which was the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>original</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > reason</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>we went to eAN 80</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > Sure and several people who have been killed crossing the street</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>were</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > wearing red shirts on Friday the 13th. I always wear blue shirts</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > prevent this.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>Respectfully yours,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>Tom Mount</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >>CEO IANTD World HQ</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >><A HREF="http://www.iantd.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.iantd.com</A></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > >></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > Originally posted by George, 9/18/97:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > -----------</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > A (BAKER'S) DOZEN REASONS WHY WE DO NOT USE 80/20</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 1) This gas was introduced in an effort to overcome the inability of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > unqualified student "tech" divers to control their buoyancy in open</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > water, and is as such is yet one more concession to doing things in</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > convoluted fashion to offset a self- inflicted set of problems</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>brought</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > on by the "doing it wrong" thinking that pervades diving today.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 2) A heavy sea is not a problem for a deco stop if it is not posing</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > lung-loading problem. Look at your depth guage in a heavy sea and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>"see"</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > for yourself what the changes are - insignificant, and if they are</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>not,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > you should either not have been diving or incurring a decompression</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > liability of this magnitude in the first place. In the event of a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>change</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > in conditions during the dive, see below where the 80/20 becomes a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > liability rather than an assett.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 3) In the interest of using a standardized set of gases for which</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > can permanently mark your bottles , it is a poor concession to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>inability</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > to sacrifice the benfits of pure O2 to accomodate a real or</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>percived</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > lack of skill - learn to dive before taking up techdiving.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 4) In this same interest you will find that when you graduate to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>real</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > diving, as in caves, you will not want to accellerate your ppo2 at</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > lower depths while still being faced with a long decompression at</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > shallower depths, and making bizarre mixes to do this is a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>dangerous</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > mistake (just like the fantasy of holding an accellerated ppo2 on a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > rebreather throughout a deco). I am anticipating the thinking that</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 80/20 crowd would then go to an additional oxygen in cave without</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > accounting for total exposure, and subject themselves to the risk of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>tox</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > in the final deco steps. Tox you do not get out of - bends you do.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 5) The 80/20 mix is in fact totally useless and contraindicated as</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > deco gas. At thirty feet it is only a 1.52 ppo2 ( the real 1.6</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>ppo2</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > gas would be 84/16) and as such does not either provide the right</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > oxygen window, nor does it does it work as well as pure oxygen</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>without</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > an inert gas at any depth. The gas mixing in your lungs has already</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > lowerd the effective ppo2 enough to prevent spiking at 20 feet</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>anyway</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > with the use of pure oxygen - in other words, we aer dealing with a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > simplisitc misunderstanding here, or "old wives tale" that is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>typical in</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > diving.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 6) If 100% oxygen is a percieved buoyancy control risk at 20 feet,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>then</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > why is the same ppo2 ( intended) not a risk at 30 feet? This shows</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > total lack of reasonable logic involved in the decision to use this</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>gas,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > as well as a lack of understanding of the whole picture ( see the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>rest</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > of this discussion).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 7) Along those lines, all we hear is howling about "oxygen</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>cleaning"</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > above 40% mixtures, and dive shop proprietors on here complaining</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>about</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > scuba tanks with oxygen in them being filled in their shops. With a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > pure oxygen system, the tank only ever gets filled with oxygen from</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > oxygen tanks, not from every dive shop compressor it sees. Again ,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>this</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > shows the total inconsistency of agency thinking, and reveals that</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > true reason for this gas is to pretend to lower liability for</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>teaching</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > incompetents to dive, which is bull, and to attempt to accrue some</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > inventive accomplishemts to the dive agency pundits who themseleves</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > prove that they do no real diving by making this recommendation</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > in the first place. This is like the colored regs, the stages on</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>either</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > side, the quick-release buckle, and the poodle jacket: nonsense of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > most obvious nature developped through one-dimesional thinking by</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>those</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > whose universe of understanding is not only severly limited, but</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>blinded</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > by the hubris of not being the "inventor" of the techniques that</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>work.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 8) Any perceived decompression benefit of using a higher ppo2 at 30</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > feet with 80/20 is then given back by the lowered ppo2 at 20 feet,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>not</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > to mention the fact that the presence of the inert gas in the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>breathing</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > mixture defeats the purpose of using oxygen in the first place</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2> see</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > the Physiology and Medicine of Diving) . The ppo2 of 80/20 at 20</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>feet</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > is 1.28, not much of an oxygen window, and at 10 feet it is 1.04 -</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > useless for deco. To make matters worse, you can not get out from</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>your</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 30 foot stop in an emergency ( not doing the other stops) on the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>80/20</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > mix without really risking a type 2 hit.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 9) This is a dangerous method to achieve a greater total volume of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>gas</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > for the bad breathers (another obvious reason the gas is in vogue),</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>who</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > should not be incurring these decos, and even that benefit of having</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > more gas is lost since it is breathed at 30 feet, and then has to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>last</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > for the other stops. The fact is that gas is effecively saved by</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>using</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > the lower deco gas up to this point, relying on the pressure</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>gradient</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > to both achieve the deco and provide a break from high the previous</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > gas's higher PPO2 prior to going to pure oxygen where the spike</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>could</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > be a problem on an extreme exposure without an adequate low ppo2</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>break (</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > again this shows that the 80% user is a neopyte diver with no real</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > experience or understanding of the true risks of these dives) .</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 10) The 20-30% longer 30 foot time on the lower ppo2 is not only</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > overcome on the pure oxygen at the next stops, the breaks do not</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>come</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > into play until the initial good dose of pure oxygen has been</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>absorbed,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > since you are not spiking from a high pervious dose without a break</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > that is effectively achieved on the previous gas. These things need</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > be understood and taught by the agencies, not some superficial</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > convolution that is designed to obfuscate the problem rather than</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > openly acknowledge and deal with it in a responsible fashion.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 11) In an emergency situation, getting onto the pure O2 for 20</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>minutes</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > or so (for long dives something approximating the bottom time or a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>any</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > decent interval) would give you a real good shot at getting out</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > the water having missed the rest of your deco and living through it</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > with pain hits only. You have to think these things all the way</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>though,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > not go for the transparent superficial thinking of those who merely</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>are</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > trying to "make their mark" with some "great" idea they can call</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>their</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > own. The acid test is , as always, is the caliber of the divers who</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > adopt these practices.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 12) If there is some problem with your deco or you otherwise</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>develop</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > symptoms and need oxygen either on the surface or back in the water,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>it</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > is silly to have not had it there all along. 80/20 is a joke for</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>that</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > purpose, unless you have asthma, in which case any accellerated</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>oxygen</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > mix would be a nightmare. This is again part of the "thinking it all</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > way through" phiosophy which is obviously mising from the 80/20</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > argument.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > 13) Only a card-carrying stroke would do somethng like this, and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > showing up with 80/20 is no different than wearing a sign on your</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>back</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > saying "I am a stroke, and have the papers to prove it". It</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>announces to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > all the world that you have no clue, kind of like wearing clip-on</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > suspenders or having dog dirt on your shoes.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > George Irvine</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > Director, WKPP</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > "Do It Right" (or don't do it at all)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > --</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > ...</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > --</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>--</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1721.185D8548-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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