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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:55:45 -0700
From: Cam Banks <cam@ca*.co*>
To: DeepH20Scuba <deeph20scuba@ex*.co*>
CC: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Dive Report: Clinton (10/2/99)
You have been filtered, troll.  Maybe the rest of the tech list will do
likewise.

Cam

DeepH20Scuba wrote:
> 
> Don't tell the list his name because there is no need for it.  Who the hell
> cares who this guy is. What are you going to do with his name?  Ban him from
> this wonderful informational list?  Whoooooo!  Maybe you could pull his PADI
> master diver rating.  That would show him.
> 
> This list is ridiculous.  If some of these "divers" on the list would try
> diving instead of punching their keyboard all day maybe we would have a
> better safety record. But of course, spout off all your stupid flames and
> opinions.  Thank God, I wont hear any of them becuase I will be at 310 fsw
> today.
> 
> Austin
> 
> P.S. Just for your info, I actually plan on getting into the water.  Not
> just simulating my dive on Microsoft Scuba like the majority of "tech
> divers" on this list.
> 
> On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:34:12 -0400, kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote:
> 
> > Mke, it is bad enough to use 80/20 in the first place, so it is no
> > suprise that anyone this stupid would also think that they are somehow
> > absolved of lung damage or CNS exposure due to the % of ox rather than
> > the partial pressure. It is also no suprise that these strokes then
> > proceeded to stage a cluster, putting all of you at risk as you so
> > correctly point out.
> >
> > This is what is known as a "boat monkey" dumb ass dive instructor , a
> > common element in "tech" diving these days.
> >
> > How about telling us who this guy is?
> >
> >
> > Mike Rodriguez wrote:
> > >
> > > At 06:54 AM 10/13/99 PDT, DeepH20Scuba wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmm... you seem to have misread my post.  Try again.
> > >
> > > This was my longest dive on this particular wreck.  I have
> > > rather more experience than that.  You know nothing about me.
> > >
> > > All that aside, your comments indicate a shocking lack of
> > > knowledge.  Any responsible diver with even an elementary
> > > understanding of CNS-O2 physiology would also have be outraged
> > > by a tech instructor's comment that air-breaks are not necessary
> > > when using an 80% O2 concentration for decompression, and that
> > > air-breaks are only necessary when using 100% O2.  If he's telling
> > > his students this, and I have no reason to believe he isn't,
> > > then he's being grossly negligent, putting himself and his
> > > certifying organization at risk of a lawsuit, and he's putting
> > > our entire sport at risk of being regulated by the government.
> > >
> > > For the record, I don't tell anyone how to dive, but I also
> > > don't appreciate it when other divers demonstrate the kind
> > > of inconsiderate behavior the three OOA divers on this dive
> > > demonstrated.  I use the term 'inconsiderate' because, by causing
> > > an OOA situation, they put *me* at risk as well as themselves since
> > > I had to rescue this instructor.  Had I not brought with me
> > > enough gas to complete my own decompression and had enough
> > > left-over for him to complete his as well, he might well have
> > > spent that night in a hospital or worse.  In addition to my
> > > safety, he also put the safety of my gear, which saved him
> > > from a possible DCS hit, at risk since I had to leave it with
> > > him so he could finish his dive.  As my post indicated, this
> > > is not the first time I've had to do this, and I'm tired of
> > > it.  On top of that, add the fact that the government is
> > > already looking into regulating this sport (the governmental
> > > backlash due to the recent rash of deaths on the Doria, for
> > > example.)  The actions of irresponsible people like these
> > > divers cause all of this.
> > >
> > > Again, since you seem to have trouble reading, I'll reiterate.
> > > I don't tell anyone how to dive, but if a careless and inconsiderate
> > > diver puts my life, my buddy's life, or my gear in danger (which
> > > these guys did by virtue of their need for a rescue), I'll have
> > > something to say.  As for your comment:
> > >
> > >      "Maybe you don't know all the facts and it
> > >       probably isn't any of your business that you do."
> > >
> > > Get with it.  Read my post again.  I was there; in the water
> > > with them on the bottom, during deco, and during the on-boat
> > > discussion after the dive.  How could I not know all the facts
> > > when I rescued these guys?  Furthermore, my presence on this dive
> > > most definitely makes it my business to know the facts since they
> > > *directly* affect my safety.  How could you be so short-sighted
> > > as to not see this and not be as outraged as I am?
> > >
> > > -Mike Rodriguez
> > > <mikey@ma*.co*>
> > >
> > > >Judging by your experience level, (my longest dive, 150fsw for 30 min,
> a
> > > >cakewalk dive in my neighborhood) you have no business telling an
> instructor
> > > >what to do or how to dive.  This guy obviously has more experience than
> you
> > > >and you have the conceit to demand an explanation from him about his
> > > >dive???!@!# Maybe you don't know all the facts and it probably isn't
> any of
> > > >your business that you do.
> > > >
> > > >I am glad that he ruined your day and your dive.  Maybe it will make
> guys
> > > >like you think twice about going on the boat trips and keep you away
> from
> > > >guys like me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > Dive Report: Clinton (10/2/99)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > A group of five divers dove the Clinton Saturday
> > > >> > (10/2/99) off the
> > > >> > Tonto.  Bob Sheridan of Anchor SCUBA was captain.
> > > >> > The conditions
> > > >> > were good.  There was a light breeze, and the ocean
> > > >> > was running about
> > > >> > three feet.  It was sunny and warm.  There was a
> > > >> > moderate surface
> > > >> > current at maybe 3/4 knot with no discernable bottom
> > > >> > current at all.
> > > >> > Visibility at the bottom was about 80 feet and about
> > > >> > 40 feet near
> > > >> > the surface.  Air temperature was around 88 and
> > > >> > water temperature
> > > >> > was about 76 at the bottom and 80 near the surface.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I had agreed with Bob earlier that I would jump the
> > > >> > wreck with
> > > >> > the floatline, and my dive buddy, Mark Zurl,
> > > >> > volunteered to jump
> > > >> > with me.  Bob set us up and we jumped.  We headed
> > > >> > down at about
> > > >> > 150 FPM so we were on the wreck in about 60 seconds.
> > > >> >  The drop
> > > >> > was nearly perfect.  I tied in the floatline near
> > > >> > the middle
> > > >> > of the ship on the port side and made a mental note
> > > >> > of the
> > > >> > non-existent current.  I exchanged OKs with Mark and
> > > >> > began exploring.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > My planned bottom time was 30 minutes and this would
> > > >> > be my longest
> > > >> > dive to-date on the Clinton.  I intended to enjoy
> > > >> > every minute of
> > > >> > it.  I immediately headed over the starboard side to
> > > >> > the sand at 172
> > > >> > feet and swam toward the stern.  There were a few of
> > > >> > the usual critters
> > > >> > near the bottom of the hull in the sand... crabs and
> > > >> > a few anonymous
> > > >> > fish.  Along the way, I found one of the explosion
> > > >> > holes made during
> > > >> > the sinking and went inside.  I was in a corridor
> > > >> > with electrical
> > > >> > boxes, electric motors connected to what looked like
> > > >> > pumps,
> > > >> > and various other hardware.  Near one of the
> > > >> > electric motors
> > > >> > I found several things that were about the size and
> > > >> > shape of
> > > >> > batteries, but I could see no terminal posts.  I
> > > >> > must have spent
> > > >> > several minutes there just staring at these things
> > > >> > trying to
> > > >> > figure out what they were.  I never did.  I'll go
> > > >> > back again
> > > >> > next time and take another look.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > When I got tired of staring at the battery-like
> > > >> > things, I exited
> > > >> > the corridor the same way I entered and continued my
> > > >> > swim toward
> > > >> > the stern.  Along the way, I swam under a part of
> > > >> > the side of
> > > >> > the ship that had collapsed to the sand and formed
> > > >> > an interesting
> > > >> > swim-through.  I reached another explosion hole and
> > > >> > entered
> > > >> > the wreck again.  This time, I swam down a short
> > > >> > corridor,
> > > >> > through a bulkhead and into one of the cargo holds.
> > > >> > By now,
> > > >> > the other three divers were on the wreck and
> > > >> > exploring.  I made
> > > >> > a mental note that all five of us were down now.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Continuing through the cargo hold toward the stern I
> > > >> > found an
> > > >> > old compressor with an electric motor.  It looked
> > > >> > like a
> > > >> > single-stage low pressure deal.  I headed up to the
> > > >> > deck
> > > >> > and swam further along when I passed an opening in
> > > >> > the deck.
> > > >> > I stuck my head in to look around and was astonished
> > > >> > at the
> > > >> > sight of a jewfish that mush have weighed 250+ lbs.
> > > >> > It was
> > > >> > enormous.  I must have startled it because it
> > > >> > immediately
> > > >> > and gracefully swam through a bulkhead and I lost
> > > >> > sight of it.
> > > >> > I wanted to follow the fish, but the hole I'd stuck
> > > >> > my head in
> > > >> > was too small for me to get through.  I quickly
> > > >> > looked around
> > > >> > in the direction the fish had gone and found another
> > > >> > similar
> > > >> > hole that appeared to be past the bulkhead the fish
> > > >> > swam through,
> > > >> > so I swam there and looked in... nothing.  This huge
> > > >> > fish managed
> > > >> > to completely disappear without a trace.  I sat
> > > >> > there imagining
> > > >> > the fish hiding someplace and snickering at how
> > > >> > easily it could
> > > >> > evade me, then I continued my dive hoping to get one
> > > >> > more lucky
> > > >> > glimpse of that fish... I never did see it again,
> > > >> > though.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I finally made it to the stern and I stared at the
> > > >> > two pairs
> > > >> > of rings on the back of the ship.  I've speculated
> > > >> > about what
> > > >> > they were since my first dive here, but I've never
> > > >> > been able
> > > >> > to figure it out.  Later, on the boat, one of the
> > > >> > other divers
> > > >> > pointed out to me that the rings were probably used
> > > >> > to anchor
> > > >> > the Clinton (which is a barge) to the bottom of the
> > > >> > ocean by
> > > >> > running pilings through the rings.  That made sense,
> > > >> > but I'd
> > > >> > think there would be similar rings on the other end
> > > >> > of the
> > > >> > ship, and there aren't any.  Maybe there were at one
> > > >> > time.
> > > >> > I don't know.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > About now, my bottom time was approaching my planned
> > > >> > 30 minutes
> > > >> > and I headed back toward the line.  Mark was on the
> > > >> > line headed
> > > >> > up, and I could see one of the other divers still on
> > > >> > the wreck.
> > > >> > I recognized him as the one who had volunteered to
> > > >> > unhook us,
> > > >> > and I let him know that I was now leaving the wreck.
> > > >> >  As I left
> > > >> > the wreck, I saw a cool optical illusion created by
> > > >> > light and
> > > >> > shadow playing over part of the ship's structure.
> > > >> > For a second,
> > > >> > it looked like large black bird perched on a railing
> > > >> > near where
> > > >> > the floatline was attached.  A moment later, the
> > > >> > illusion was gone.
> > > >> > I kept staring in that direction hoping I could get
> > > >> > the effect
> > > >> > back, but the bird was gone for good.  I grinned
> > > >> > letting some
> > > >> > water in my mask which I quickly cleared, then I
> > > >> > headed on up.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > While moving along beside the floatline, I took a
> > > >> > look at
> > > >> > my Nitek 3 (which is not suitable for mix diving)
> > > >> > and noticed
> > > >> > that it coincidentally indicated about the same deco
> > > >> > as my tables.
> > > >> > This seems to hold pretty well for dives to about
> > > >> > 180 feet with
> > > >> > moderate bottom times.  It diverges rapidly on
> > > >> > deeper or longer
> > > >> > dives, but it's good to have a feel for what the
> > > >> > Nitek says on
> > > >> > these dives in case it somehow becomes my only
> > > >> > source of deco
> > > >> > information some day.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > In the zero-current, I just free-swam near the line
> > > >> > and regulated
> > > >> > my ascent with buoyancy.  I was still in sight of
> > > >> > the last diver
> > > >> > when I reached my first deep stop and saw that he
> > > >> > was unhooking
> > > >> > the floatline.  I continued my deco as usual except
> > > >> > that I was
> > > >> > trying a new way to carry my tables on this dive.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I usually generate my schedules with Decom and write
> > > >> > them on my
> > > >> > slate and keep my contingency schedules on a pad in
> > > >> > my pocket.  On
> > > >> > this dive, I switched to Voyager, which prints
> > > >> > tables in a much
> > > >> > more compact format.  The plan as well as several
> > > >> > contingencies
> > > >> > end up on one small, easy-to-read piece of paper.
> > > >> > It occurred to
> > > >> > me that the time-consuming and error-prone process
> > > >> > of manually
> > > >> > transcribing Decom tables onto slates and pads could
> > > >> > be bypassed
> > > >> > by finding a way to take the Voyager tables with me
> > > >> > on the dives.
> > > >> > I've seen other divers use some sort of plastic
> > > >> > lamination to
> > > >> > do exactly this, but the lamination always seem to
> > > >> > be peeling
> > > >> > off and the tables are always hard to read so I went
> > > >> > to a local
> > > >> > office supply store and bought a quality laminating
> > > >> > machine.  It
> > > >> > was expensive, but I'm glad I bought it.  This
> > > >> > machine uses a
> > > >> > cold adhesive laminating process instead of heat;
> > > >> > and I think the
> > > >> > adhesive works far better for this application.  My
> > > >> > tables stayed
> > > >> > dry and readable during my deco and as a bonus, I
> > > >> > can reuse them
> > > >> > next time I dive the Clinton without having to
> > > >> > calculate everything
> > > >> > again.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Anyway, I was at my 10 foot deco stop with Mark when
> > > >> > I noticed
> > > >> > there seemed to be a problem with the other three
> > > >> > divers.  They
> > > >> > were all hanging on the line at about 10 feet and
> > > >> > looking at
> > > >> > and comparing gauges unusually frequently; a sure
> > > >> > sign that
> > > >> > there's a gas shortage.  I grimaced and hoped I was
> > > >> > wrong.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > It turns out that these guys had done a deep dive
> > > >> > earlier in the
> > > >> > day and failed to account for the residual in their
> > > >> > dive planning
> > > >> > (yeah, what planning) for this dive.  Due to the
> > > >> > multi-dive
> > > >> > profile, they had over two hours of deco time
> > > >> > pending (according
> > > >> > to their dive computers) and had nowhere near enough
> > > >> > gas to finish
> > > >> > it.  What's even more perplexing is that they were
> > > >> > all diving on
> > > >> > computers and should have seen the deco time rising
> > > >> > rapidly if
> > > >> > they'd bothered to look at the computer from time to
> > > >> > time while on
> > > >> > the bottom.  This was about as big a CF as you can
> > > >> > have without
> > > >> > anyone actually getting hurt.  To make matters
> > > >> > worse, one of these
> > > >> > guys is a tech instructor!  Frankly, it was
> > > >> > inexcusable.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > If I seem irate, it's because I am.  I love tech
> > > >> > diving.  I put
> > > >> > up with the hassles, the gear, the expense, the long
> > > >> > deco, and
> > > >> > all the other crap because I enjoy it so much.
> > > >> > However, when
> > > >> > something like this happens, it ruins my whole day.
> > > >> > Here I am
> > > >> > at the end of a great dive and it's overshadowed by
> > > >> > the threat
> > > >> > of injury or worse to a bunch of guys who couldn't
> > > >> > be bothered
> > > >> > to plan a dive.  I ended up wishing I'd never gone
> > > >> > diving that
> > > >> > day, and it sucked.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > When my deco was complete, I unhooked my O2, made
> > > >> > eye-contact
> > > >> > with the guy I was going to give it to (the
> > > >> > instructor), pointed
> > > >> > at the MOD and made certain that he understood, then
> > > >> > I clipped
> > > >> > it onto him.  I looked at his computer which still
> > > >> > indicated over
> > > >> > 100 minutes of deco.  I signaled that I was heading
> > > >> > up to the boat
> > > >> > and I left.  While the most present thing on my mind
> > > >> > was the safety
> > > >> > of the OOA diver, a close second was the memory of
> > > >> > my perfectly
> > > >> > good aluminum 30 deco bottle and regulator that now
> > > >> > sits at the
> > > >> > bottom of the ocean somewhere.  In a similar
> > > >> > incident a few years
> > > >> > ago, another OOA diver dropped my bottle when he
> > > >> > finished his deco.
> > > >> > I was never reimbursed for it and got only an
> > > >> > apology for the
> > > >> > loss of several hundred dollars worth of gear.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Once on the boat, I got in a healthy dose of
> > > >> > complaining.
> > > >> > Mark was already aboard and he, Bob and I discussed
> > > >> > what to
> > > >> > do.  Meanwhile, one of the three remaining divers
> > > >> > surfaced.
> > > >> > His deco went normally and only the last two were in
> > > >> > trouble.
> > > >> > We decided to send down additional O2 for the OOA
> > > >> > divers.
> > > >> > I have a steel 72 with two second stages on 10 foot
> > > >> > hoses.  I
> > > >> > usually use it to breath prophylactic O2 for a few
> > > >> > minutes after
> > > >> > a dive.  The long hoses allow me to move around the
> > > >> > boat easily
> > > >> > and pack my gear while I do this.  This bottle is
> > > >> > also along with
> > > >> > me in case of a DCS emergency.  Since these things
> > > >> > often happen
> > > >> > in pairs (two buddies) I have two second stages on
> > > >> > long hoses
> > > >> > on it.  We decided to send this bottle down and clip
> > > >> > it to the
> > > >> > line.  There was plenty of gas in it to finish
> > > >> > decoing the OOA
> > > >> > divers.  Bob found a slate and began scratching out
> > > >> > a message;
> > > >> > I suggested he mention that the guys down there
> > > >> > should be taking
> > > >> > air-breaks due to the long deco.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I got my O2 tank ready to take down.  Thoughts of my
> > > >> > beloved
> > > >> > steel 72 complete with 10 foot hoses neatly stowed
> > > >> > in their
> > > >> > bungies resting at the bottom of the ocean after
> > > >> > being dropped
> > > >> > by a careless diver flashed through my mind.  Then,
> > > >> > unexpectedly,
> > > >> > one of the two remaining divers surfaced (not the
> > > >> > one with my
> > > >> > deco bottle).  He indicated that his deco was
> > > >> > complete but that
> > > >> > the remaining diver (the instructor for heaven's
> > > >> > sake) still had
> > > >> > quite a bit of deco left.  This is the same guy who
> > > >> > unhooked the
> > > >> > line and I wondered, in astonishment, what lead him
> > > >> > to stay down
> > > >> > there so long.  Before we managed to get my O2
> > > >> > bottle in the
> > > >> > water, he surfaced (fortunately, with my deco bottle
> > > >> > still securely
> > > >> > clipped).
> > > >> >
> > > >> > We got him aboard and asked for an explanation.
> > > >> > Essentially, the
> > > >> > explanation was that the dive wasn't planned, and
> > > >> > before they knew
> > > >> > it, their computers racked up two hours of deco.
> > > >> > Pretty poor
> > > >> > explanation, I think.  I asked if he'd taken
> > > >> > air-breaks and he
> > > >> > (get this) said that they weren't needed because he
> > > >> > was only
> > > >> > breathing 80% not 100%.  And this guy is a tech
> > > >> > instructor?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I gently suggested that he was in error and that
> > > >> > air-breaks are
> > > >> > dictated by the CNS 'clock' approaching 100% and
> > > >> > their need has
> > > >> > no direct relation to the FO2.  If the PO2 is over
> > > >> > .5, the CNS
> > > >> > 'clock' is ticking.  Before it runs out, you take
> > > >> > air-breaks or
> > > >> > you risk a tox.  How a tech instructor could be so
> > > >> > blissfully
> > > >> > unaware of this is utterly beyond me.  Despite my
> > > >> > explanation,
> > > >> > he insisted that air-breaks are not necessary on 80%
> > > >> > deco.
> > > >> > Whatever.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The trip back was uneventful and other than the CF
> > > >> > at the end,
> > > >> > I enjoyed the dive.  I will not dive with those guys
> > > >> > again,
> > > >> > though.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -Mike Rodriguez
> > > >> > <mikey@ma*.co*>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> ============================================================
> > > >> > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to:
> > > >> > listserv@mi*.ne*
> > > >> > and in the *BODY* of the message type:
> > > >> > unsubscribe FLTechDiver
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> =====
> > > >>
> > > >> __________________________________________________
> > > >> Do You Yahoo!?
> > > >> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >________________________________________________________________
> > > >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com
> > > >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com
> > > >--
> > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
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> > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > -Mike Rodriguez
> > > <mikey@ma*.co*>
> > >
> > > --
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> >
> >
> 
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