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Mke, it is bad enough to use 80/20 in the first place, so it is no suprise that anyone this stupid would also think that they are somehow absolved of lung damage or CNS exposure due to the % of ox rather than the partial pressure. It is also no suprise that these strokes then proceeded to stage a cluster, putting all of you at risk as you so correctly point out. This is what is known as a "boat monkey" dumb ass dive instructor , a common element in "tech" diving these days. How about telling us who this guy is? Mike Rodriguez wrote: > > At 06:54 AM 10/13/99 PDT, DeepH20Scuba wrote: > > Hmm... you seem to have misread my post. Try again. > > This was my longest dive on this particular wreck. I have > rather more experience than that. You know nothing about me. > > All that aside, your comments indicate a shocking lack of > knowledge. Any responsible diver with even an elementary > understanding of CNS-O2 physiology would also have be outraged > by a tech instructor's comment that air-breaks are not necessary > when using an 80% O2 concentration for decompression, and that > air-breaks are only necessary when using 100% O2. If he's telling > his students this, and I have no reason to believe he isn't, > then he's being grossly negligent, putting himself and his > certifying organization at risk of a lawsuit, and he's putting > our entire sport at risk of being regulated by the government. > > For the record, I don't tell anyone how to dive, but I also > don't appreciate it when other divers demonstrate the kind > of inconsiderate behavior the three OOA divers on this dive > demonstrated. I use the term 'inconsiderate' because, by causing > an OOA situation, they put *me* at risk as well as themselves since > I had to rescue this instructor. Had I not brought with me > enough gas to complete my own decompression and had enough > left-over for him to complete his as well, he might well have > spent that night in a hospital or worse. In addition to my > safety, he also put the safety of my gear, which saved him > from a possible DCS hit, at risk since I had to leave it with > him so he could finish his dive. As my post indicated, this > is not the first time I've had to do this, and I'm tired of > it. On top of that, add the fact that the government is > already looking into regulating this sport (the governmental > backlash due to the recent rash of deaths on the Doria, for > example.) The actions of irresponsible people like these > divers cause all of this. > > Again, since you seem to have trouble reading, I'll reiterate. > I don't tell anyone how to dive, but if a careless and inconsiderate > diver puts my life, my buddy's life, or my gear in danger (which > these guys did by virtue of their need for a rescue), I'll have > something to say. As for your comment: > > "Maybe you don't know all the facts and it > probably isn't any of your business that you do." > > Get with it. Read my post again. I was there; in the water > with them on the bottom, during deco, and during the on-boat > discussion after the dive. How could I not know all the facts > when I rescued these guys? Furthermore, my presence on this dive > most definitely makes it my business to know the facts since they > *directly* affect my safety. How could you be so short-sighted > as to not see this and not be as outraged as I am? > > -Mike Rodriguez > <mikey@ma*.co*> > > >Judging by your experience level, (my longest dive, 150fsw for 30 min, a > >cakewalk dive in my neighborhood) you have no business telling an instructor > >what to do or how to dive. This guy obviously has more experience than you > >and you have the conceit to demand an explanation from him about his > >dive???!@!# Maybe you don't know all the facts and it probably isn't any of > >your business that you do. > > > >I am glad that he ruined your day and your dive. Maybe it will make guys > >like you think twice about going on the boat trips and keep you away from > >guys like me. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > >> > Dive Report: Clinton (10/2/99) > >> > > >> > A group of five divers dove the Clinton Saturday > >> > (10/2/99) off the > >> > Tonto. Bob Sheridan of Anchor SCUBA was captain. > >> > The conditions > >> > were good. There was a light breeze, and the ocean > >> > was running about > >> > three feet. It was sunny and warm. There was a > >> > moderate surface > >> > current at maybe 3/4 knot with no discernable bottom > >> > current at all. > >> > Visibility at the bottom was about 80 feet and about > >> > 40 feet near > >> > the surface. Air temperature was around 88 and > >> > water temperature > >> > was about 76 at the bottom and 80 near the surface. > >> > > >> > I had agreed with Bob earlier that I would jump the > >> > wreck with > >> > the floatline, and my dive buddy, Mark Zurl, > >> > volunteered to jump > >> > with me. Bob set us up and we jumped. We headed > >> > down at about > >> > 150 FPM so we were on the wreck in about 60 seconds. > >> > The drop > >> > was nearly perfect. I tied in the floatline near > >> > the middle > >> > of the ship on the port side and made a mental note > >> > of the > >> > non-existent current. I exchanged OKs with Mark and > >> > began exploring. > >> > > >> > My planned bottom time was 30 minutes and this would > >> > be my longest > >> > dive to-date on the Clinton. I intended to enjoy > >> > every minute of > >> > it. I immediately headed over the starboard side to > >> > the sand at 172 > >> > feet and swam toward the stern. There were a few of > >> > the usual critters > >> > near the bottom of the hull in the sand... crabs and > >> > a few anonymous > >> > fish. Along the way, I found one of the explosion > >> > holes made during > >> > the sinking and went inside. I was in a corridor > >> > with electrical > >> > boxes, electric motors connected to what looked like > >> > pumps, > >> > and various other hardware. Near one of the > >> > electric motors > >> > I found several things that were about the size and > >> > shape of > >> > batteries, but I could see no terminal posts. I > >> > must have spent > >> > several minutes there just staring at these things > >> > trying to > >> > figure out what they were. I never did. I'll go > >> > back again > >> > next time and take another look. > >> > > >> > When I got tired of staring at the battery-like > >> > things, I exited > >> > the corridor the same way I entered and continued my > >> > swim toward > >> > the stern. Along the way, I swam under a part of > >> > the side of > >> > the ship that had collapsed to the sand and formed > >> > an interesting > >> > swim-through. I reached another explosion hole and > >> > entered > >> > the wreck again. This time, I swam down a short > >> > corridor, > >> > through a bulkhead and into one of the cargo holds. > >> > By now, > >> > the other three divers were on the wreck and > >> > exploring. I made > >> > a mental note that all five of us were down now. > >> > > >> > Continuing through the cargo hold toward the stern I > >> > found an > >> > old compressor with an electric motor. It looked > >> > like a > >> > single-stage low pressure deal. I headed up to the > >> > deck > >> > and swam further along when I passed an opening in > >> > the deck. > >> > I stuck my head in to look around and was astonished > >> > at the > >> > sight of a jewfish that mush have weighed 250+ lbs. > >> > It was > >> > enormous. I must have startled it because it > >> > immediately > >> > and gracefully swam through a bulkhead and I lost > >> > sight of it. > >> > I wanted to follow the fish, but the hole I'd stuck > >> > my head in > >> > was too small for me to get through. I quickly > >> > looked around > >> > in the direction the fish had gone and found another > >> > similar > >> > hole that appeared to be past the bulkhead the fish > >> > swam through, > >> > so I swam there and looked in... nothing. This huge > >> > fish managed > >> > to completely disappear without a trace. I sat > >> > there imagining > >> > the fish hiding someplace and snickering at how > >> > easily it could > >> > evade me, then I continued my dive hoping to get one > >> > more lucky > >> > glimpse of that fish... I never did see it again, > >> > though. > >> > > >> > I finally made it to the stern and I stared at the > >> > two pairs > >> > of rings on the back of the ship. I've speculated > >> > about what > >> > they were since my first dive here, but I've never > >> > been able > >> > to figure it out. Later, on the boat, one of the > >> > other divers > >> > pointed out to me that the rings were probably used > >> > to anchor > >> > the Clinton (which is a barge) to the bottom of the > >> > ocean by > >> > running pilings through the rings. That made sense, > >> > but I'd > >> > think there would be similar rings on the other end > >> > of the > >> > ship, and there aren't any. Maybe there were at one > >> > time. > >> > I don't know. > >> > > >> > About now, my bottom time was approaching my planned > >> > 30 minutes > >> > and I headed back toward the line. Mark was on the > >> > line headed > >> > up, and I could see one of the other divers still on > >> > the wreck. > >> > I recognized him as the one who had volunteered to > >> > unhook us, > >> > and I let him know that I was now leaving the wreck. > >> > As I left > >> > the wreck, I saw a cool optical illusion created by > >> > light and > >> > shadow playing over part of the ship's structure. > >> > For a second, > >> > it looked like large black bird perched on a railing > >> > near where > >> > the floatline was attached. A moment later, the > >> > illusion was gone. > >> > I kept staring in that direction hoping I could get > >> > the effect > >> > back, but the bird was gone for good. I grinned > >> > letting some > >> > water in my mask which I quickly cleared, then I > >> > headed on up. > >> > > >> > While moving along beside the floatline, I took a > >> > look at > >> > my Nitek 3 (which is not suitable for mix diving) > >> > and noticed > >> > that it coincidentally indicated about the same deco > >> > as my tables. > >> > This seems to hold pretty well for dives to about > >> > 180 feet with > >> > moderate bottom times. It diverges rapidly on > >> > deeper or longer > >> > dives, but it's good to have a feel for what the > >> > Nitek says on > >> > these dives in case it somehow becomes my only > >> > source of deco > >> > information some day. > >> > > >> > In the zero-current, I just free-swam near the line > >> > and regulated > >> > my ascent with buoyancy. I was still in sight of > >> > the last diver > >> > when I reached my first deep stop and saw that he > >> > was unhooking > >> > the floatline. I continued my deco as usual except > >> > that I was > >> > trying a new way to carry my tables on this dive. > >> > > >> > I usually generate my schedules with Decom and write > >> > them on my > >> > slate and keep my contingency schedules on a pad in > >> > my pocket. On > >> > this dive, I switched to Voyager, which prints > >> > tables in a much > >> > more compact format. The plan as well as several > >> > contingencies > >> > end up on one small, easy-to-read piece of paper. > >> > It occurred to > >> > me that the time-consuming and error-prone process > >> > of manually > >> > transcribing Decom tables onto slates and pads could > >> > be bypassed > >> > by finding a way to take the Voyager tables with me > >> > on the dives. > >> > I've seen other divers use some sort of plastic > >> > lamination to > >> > do exactly this, but the lamination always seem to > >> > be peeling > >> > off and the tables are always hard to read so I went > >> > to a local > >> > office supply store and bought a quality laminating > >> > machine. It > >> > was expensive, but I'm glad I bought it. This > >> > machine uses a > >> > cold adhesive laminating process instead of heat; > >> > and I think the > >> > adhesive works far better for this application. My > >> > tables stayed > >> > dry and readable during my deco and as a bonus, I > >> > can reuse them > >> > next time I dive the Clinton without having to > >> > calculate everything > >> > again. > >> > > >> > Anyway, I was at my 10 foot deco stop with Mark when > >> > I noticed > >> > there seemed to be a problem with the other three > >> > divers. They > >> > were all hanging on the line at about 10 feet and > >> > looking at > >> > and comparing gauges unusually frequently; a sure > >> > sign that > >> > there's a gas shortage. I grimaced and hoped I was > >> > wrong. > >> > > >> > It turns out that these guys had done a deep dive > >> > earlier in the > >> > day and failed to account for the residual in their > >> > dive planning > >> > (yeah, what planning) for this dive. Due to the > >> > multi-dive > >> > profile, they had over two hours of deco time > >> > pending (according > >> > to their dive computers) and had nowhere near enough > >> > gas to finish > >> > it. What's even more perplexing is that they were > >> > all diving on > >> > computers and should have seen the deco time rising > >> > rapidly if > >> > they'd bothered to look at the computer from time to > >> > time while on > >> > the bottom. This was about as big a CF as you can > >> > have without > >> > anyone actually getting hurt. To make matters > >> > worse, one of these > >> > guys is a tech instructor! Frankly, it was > >> > inexcusable. > >> > > >> > If I seem irate, it's because I am. I love tech > >> > diving. I put > >> > up with the hassles, the gear, the expense, the long > >> > deco, and > >> > all the other crap because I enjoy it so much. > >> > However, when > >> > something like this happens, it ruins my whole day. > >> > Here I am > >> > at the end of a great dive and it's overshadowed by > >> > the threat > >> > of injury or worse to a bunch of guys who couldn't > >> > be bothered > >> > to plan a dive. I ended up wishing I'd never gone > >> > diving that > >> > day, and it sucked. > >> > > >> > When my deco was complete, I unhooked my O2, made > >> > eye-contact > >> > with the guy I was going to give it to (the > >> > instructor), pointed > >> > at the MOD and made certain that he understood, then > >> > I clipped > >> > it onto him. I looked at his computer which still > >> > indicated over > >> > 100 minutes of deco. I signaled that I was heading > >> > up to the boat > >> > and I left. While the most present thing on my mind > >> > was the safety > >> > of the OOA diver, a close second was the memory of > >> > my perfectly > >> > good aluminum 30 deco bottle and regulator that now > >> > sits at the > >> > bottom of the ocean somewhere. In a similar > >> > incident a few years > >> > ago, another OOA diver dropped my bottle when he > >> > finished his deco. > >> > I was never reimbursed for it and got only an > >> > apology for the > >> > loss of several hundred dollars worth of gear. > >> > > >> > Once on the boat, I got in a healthy dose of > >> > complaining. > >> > Mark was already aboard and he, Bob and I discussed > >> > what to > >> > do. Meanwhile, one of the three remaining divers > >> > surfaced. > >> > His deco went normally and only the last two were in > >> > trouble. > >> > We decided to send down additional O2 for the OOA > >> > divers. > >> > I have a steel 72 with two second stages on 10 foot > >> > hoses. I > >> > usually use it to breath prophylactic O2 for a few > >> > minutes after > >> > a dive. The long hoses allow me to move around the > >> > boat easily > >> > and pack my gear while I do this. This bottle is > >> > also along with > >> > me in case of a DCS emergency. Since these things > >> > often happen > >> > in pairs (two buddies) I have two second stages on > >> > long hoses > >> > on it. We decided to send this bottle down and clip > >> > it to the > >> > line. There was plenty of gas in it to finish > >> > decoing the OOA > >> > divers. Bob found a slate and began scratching out > >> > a message; > >> > I suggested he mention that the guys down there > >> > should be taking > >> > air-breaks due to the long deco. > >> > > >> > I got my O2 tank ready to take down. Thoughts of my > >> > beloved > >> > steel 72 complete with 10 foot hoses neatly stowed > >> > in their > >> > bungies resting at the bottom of the ocean after > >> > being dropped > >> > by a careless diver flashed through my mind. Then, > >> > unexpectedly, > >> > one of the two remaining divers surfaced (not the > >> > one with my > >> > deco bottle). He indicated that his deco was > >> > complete but that > >> > the remaining diver (the instructor for heaven's > >> > sake) still had > >> > quite a bit of deco left. This is the same guy who > >> > unhooked the > >> > line and I wondered, in astonishment, what lead him > >> > to stay down > >> > there so long. Before we managed to get my O2 > >> > bottle in the > >> > water, he surfaced (fortunately, with my deco bottle > >> > still securely > >> > clipped). > >> > > >> > We got him aboard and asked for an explanation. > >> > Essentially, the > >> > explanation was that the dive wasn't planned, and > >> > before they knew > >> > it, their computers racked up two hours of deco. > >> > Pretty poor > >> > explanation, I think. I asked if he'd taken > >> > air-breaks and he > >> > (get this) said that they weren't needed because he > >> > was only > >> > breathing 80% not 100%. And this guy is a tech > >> > instructor? > >> > > >> > I gently suggested that he was in error and that > >> > air-breaks are > >> > dictated by the CNS 'clock' approaching 100% and > >> > their need has > >> > no direct relation to the FO2. If the PO2 is over > >> > .5, the CNS > >> > 'clock' is ticking. Before it runs out, you take > >> > air-breaks or > >> > you risk a tox. How a tech instructor could be so > >> > blissfully > >> > unaware of this is utterly beyond me. Despite my > >> > explanation, > >> > he insisted that air-breaks are not necessary on 80% > >> > deco. > >> > Whatever. > >> > > >> > The trip back was uneventful and other than the CF > >> > at the end, > >> > I enjoyed the dive. I will not dive with those guys > >> > again, > >> > though. > >> > > >> > -Mike Rodriguez > >> > <mikey@ma*.co*> > >> > > >> > > >> ============================================================ > >> > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to: > >> > listserv@mi*.ne* > >> > and in the *BODY* of the message type: > >> > unsubscribe FLTechDiver > >> > > >> > >> > >> ===== > >> > >> __________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________ > >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > -Mike Rodriguez > <mikey@ma*.co*> > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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