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>>. At > the same time, the "discovery" of HPNS and the antiquated stories > showing use of anesthetics as an offset ( rather than correct decent > rates), is an easy opening for the deep air addicts to get off the wagon > and get themsleves a nice buzz,<< Regarding HPNS and the need for 'anaesthetic' nitrogen pressures - This will really piss off the Deep Air crowd, but Bennet et al. found that even with a rapid descent (100 ft / min) down to 1000 fsw (why a scuba diver is going that deep is a mystery, but...), the amount of nitrogen needed to ameliorate HPNS is NOT seriously narcotic. I did the math, once, and it worked out to something like an END of 120 fsw or so. Anyone thinking I'm pulling this out of my a**, check Bennet's book, the chapter on HPNS & Inert Gas narcosis. Rich L ----- Original Message ----- From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*> To: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*> Cc: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 12:09 PM Subject: Re: INTD "normoxic" and other trimixes > Bill, I was wondering why Tom was mentioning HPNS - I thought maybe he > was teaching welding at 800 feet now. > > The fact is that only the worst moron would try to dive deep enough on > scuba, which includes rebreathers, to be worried about HPNS - the reason > the have to worry about it on scuba is that they are trying to decend > too fast, given that they have neither enough gas nor enough time to do > the correct deco for the correct decent rate. Commercial diving with a > push/pull rb from a bell with a ship dives to severe depths and works > for hours with no problem, and no "air", but then they are not trying to > prove anything, they are doing a job. > > These guys who feel the need to do this need to just get with a good > psychiatrist and talk it out rather than kill themselves trying to prove > that they do not have a case of pinkydickism, which even saying the word > HPNS is this context implies in my opinion. > > You can't fix weenie with a trimix course. A weenie is a weenie, and > diving does not cure being a weenie. > > However, as you point out , Bill, some of these third world desperadoes > have little to live for , and nothing to lose, and nobody who cares. At > the same time, the "discovery" of HPNS and the antiquated stories > showing use of anesthetics as an offset ( rather than correct decent > rates), is an easy opening for the deep air addicts to get off the wagon > and get themsleves a nice buzz, what they are so hungry for but lack the > balls to go do correctly on land. > > Diving is in a pathetic state, in my opinion, and we do not have to look > very far to see the continuously approaching Burnham Woods of shielded > stupidity and whence it originates. > > Bill Mee wrote: > > > > > > Tell me, why on earth is the subject of HPNS even brought up in the course. > > HPNS is irrelevant to anything in meaningful, routine technical diving. > > Where HPNS is even a consideration, the depths and rigors of the dives fall > > into the category of commercial saturation diving, which is conducted by a > > far more repsonsible and rational set of rules. I can only guess that the > > allure of "deep" and the assoication of "deep" with HPNS is the reason for > > injecting this subject matter into a course where the focus should be on far > > more mundane issues. This is equivalent to filling a course in freshmen > > chemistry with topics from quantum electrodynamics. The implication is that > > students need to be concerned with diving at depths of 400 to 500 ft, which > > while romantic, is simply absurd. > > > > You need to seriously reconsider revisit these policies before somebody else > > does so for you. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*> > > To: kirvine@sa*.ne* <kirvine@sa*.ne*> > > Cc: a n <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 11:20 AM > > Subject: Re: INTD "normoxic" and other trimixes > > > > >George > > >the text includes the Technical Encyclopedia, the technical student > > workbook > > >a complete set of slides it is extremely well supported and in is our > > >preferred dive program for people getting into deeper diving. The majority > > >of instructors are able to get students who originally wanted to do > > >technical diver to take this course as instead. > > > > > >I have no doubt that some people state they are comfortable on air toi > > >greater depths however even if the technical diver program is taught they > > >are forbidden to dive deeper than 170 feet. The technical diver course does > > >require two dives deeper than 130 and no dives below 170. > > > > > >The Normoxic course is basically the same course except it does dives on > > >trimix instead of air. The student is NOTALLOWED to dive air deeper than > > 130 > > >in this program. As has been stated several times on this list over the > > past > > >three years. The student does not have any requirement to have dived air > > >deeper than 130 prior to getting into the course in fact they do not even > > >have to have been to 130 just deeper than 90 feet prior to the course. The > > >Normoxic trimix is a heavy deep diving theory course it does not get into > > >HPNS and some other factors as these things are not of a concern to > > Normoxic > > >trimix. It is intense on skills and procedures. the course requires 3 dives > > >deeper than 130 and a max depth not to exceed 200. Depths are worked up to > > >in increments no greater than 30 feet from one dive to the next. > > > > > > > > >The HPNS and other issues are addressed in depth in the trimix course where > > >dives may evolve into dives that that knowledge is mandated. The full > > trimix > > >course has six dives also 2 of which can be on air or mix as they are just > > >skill dives and need not be deep. Four dives are on mix and must be deeper > > >than 160 and no deeper than 260 > > > > > >Again if people wish details go to the web page and read through the > > >standards > > > > > >Respectfully yours, > > >Tom Mount > > >CEO IANTD World HQ > > >http://www.iantd.com > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*> > > >To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*> > > >Cc: a n <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > >Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 8:45 AM > > >Subject: Re: INTD "normoxic" and other trimixes > > > > > > > > >> T, that is not the question - the question is what materials are > > >> available for these courses. I personally have zero interest in this, > > >> but had it mentioned to me by an IANTD instructor on a dive boat the > > >> other day, the implications being that these courses are an accomodation > > >> to outside pressure and are neither well supported by IANTD, nor really > > >> intended to replace "deep air". I of course found this hard to believe > > >> so sent you that question to see if it were really possible. > > >> > > >> Tom, there are people out there, believe it or not, who are so stupid as > > >> to think ther is such a thing as an "ability" to dive deep on air, and > > >> there are intstructors out there who are so stupid, and so irresponsible > > >> that they say things like, "my personal comfort level on air is 200 > > >> feet" in front of students, who then take this to mean that unless they > > >> "can" be "comfortable" on air at "200 feet", they must not be cutting > > >> the mustard. > > >> > > >> I know this is unbelievable to a pro like yourself, but I have heard > > >> this direcdtly from the flapping lips of various instructors, > > >> affilliation unknown. > > >> > > >> Anything that pays lip service only to the importance of proper gas > > >> choices and true technical diving (which menas doing the dives proeprly > > >> and optimally), is a disservice to all of us, and in my opinion would > > >> require the attention of a dive training "leader" such as yourself for > > >> clarification. > > >> > > >> > > >> Tom Mount wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Anyone interested should go to the web pages and check the standards > > for > > >the > > >> > texts and also the skills. that should answer anyone's questions > > >> > > > >> > Respectfully yours, > > >> > Tom Mount > > >> > CEO IANTD World HQ > > >> > http://www.iantd.com > > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*> > > >> > To: <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*> > > >> > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 3:45 PM > > >> > Subject: INTD "normoxic" and other trimixes > > >> > > > >> > > Tom, I hear that there are little or no materials for your > > "normoxic", > > >> > > "intermendiate" or whatever "trimix" course. This would appear to > > make > > >> > > this course a case of "lip service" to those of us who have long been > > >> > > critics of your "deep air" courses and policy. > > >> > > > > >> > > While I like the fact that you to at least appear to comply with > > >> > > intelligent thinking, I find it appalling that the reality is you > > >still > > >> > > may not. > > >> > > > > >> > > Is this true? > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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