Will, I agree with you on the Doria completely. By your own reasoning,
however, the other wrecks tend to either get a more cohesive group
diving or do not get the traffic. I can see that not only does the gear,
lack of basic skills, and attitude contribute to the accidents , it rubs
off on the newer divers who either do or don't get wacked sooner.

You an I might be able to dive their screwed up mess and get away with
it, but when something goes amiss, we may not. I have tried every last
stupid thing these people do , right down to the upreel ordered and
bought straight from New Jersey, the double wings, the elastic wings,
the steel tanks with a wetsuit, the steel stages, the stuffed hoses, the
deep air, the crap slung eveywhere, the ponies or bottles rigged as
ponies, solo diving, etc, and have merely been lucky enough to both
survive it to dive another day and lucky enough to see the light a long
, long time ago.

On the upreel , my big beef is the gaggle of personal prefrence, do your
own thing, haphazzard nonsense that it represents ( not to mention
stuffing some ridiculous spool on the tanks). The boat and crew can not
keep track of whether their divers are on the upreels or have missed the
wreck, broken loose or never made it, and they can not go motoring
through a sea of up lines trying to determine this information. 

Using a single or double ( either end) line to the wreck with a buoy
allows the divers to use it for up and down if they want , and leaves
the boat free to work all situations or emergencies as well as keep
track of everyone. The buoy also leaves a reference to the wreck
location.

The boat can either hook to that between dives or preferably have its
own mooring near the wreck with a pelican rig to release from like the
tuna chummers do up there. 

Every last argument in favor of Jersey upreels involves screwups by the
divers, the boat , the crew and a lack of planning, a lack of discipline
and a lack of organization. It is yet one more monument to personal
preference and one more vestige of ignorance and stupdity that is the
hallmark of northeast wreck diving.

Nothing but newspaper stroies , death , disaster, horror stories ,
widows, orphans and bad press come out of NE wreck diving, and when I
read the ignorant slop that these guys spew on this list, I fully
understand why.

We develop the best techniques down here simply because to do the really
insane stuff that we do, you can not pull it off or live through it
without finding a better way.

The best of the NE wreck divers can't get to first base in our arena,
and that has nothing to do with genetics or native ability - it is all
technique and thinking it out.

Dives need to be properly planned, they need to have the divers
staggered as teams, they need to be properly supported, and the divers
need to be accounted for at all times. Their bottles and gasses need to
be kept on them, and they need to learn how to dive properly without
excess baggage, dive with the correct gear and gear balance, and to use
the techniques learned from cave diving instead of the farm animality
that they now practice and the sloppy crawling through the mud bozonity
that they now display.

A lot need to change up there and it needs to happen before one more
person dies. The long list of lame excuses for doing stupid things does
not cut it anymore.

	 
William M. Smithers wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote:
> 
> > This is complete slop - try planning the dives properly. You still don't
> > get the fact that we are in the Gulfstream, we are where the ships have
> > to run, and we are sitting at two major ports. You are so full of
> > bullshit, Art, it is frightening.
> >
> 
> George, you're totally missing the target on this one.  Yes,
> if you can afford to charter the boat with not more than
> three or four people, and you all dive as a team, and all surface
> at the same time, *and* there's a chase boat in case someone
> gets loose while still decoing, then sure, a drift dive with
> a torpedo float is what to do, and you can safely dive
> and not violate rule #1.  But that's not possible for 99% of the
> people up here.
> 
> That's all there is to it.  That isn't going to change.  Why do
> you suppose some of the more paranoid divers have EPIRBS?  I'll
> never forget that guy a few years ago who was left hanging on
> a bouy 20 miles out to sea because the "crew" of the Wahoo
> didn't do a head count before leaving.
> 
> And while I'm on the subject, there's something about your
> late rantings that's been bugging me.  Why is it that all
> these people die on the Andrea Doria, yet there are lots
> of hairier wrecks of equal or greater depth up here, like
> almost anything in the Mudhole, but almost nobody dies
> diving those?  Why?  If you look at the stats, in terms
> of diver-hours, the time spent on the mudhole wrecks probably
> comes pretty close to rivalling the time on the 'Doria every year.
> 
> I don't have an answer to that, but I can take a good guess.
> The 'Doria has this reputation as the "Mount Everest" of technical
> diving (which it's not), and as a consequence, we get alot of people
> diving it who have something to prove, and probably shouldn't be there,
> even though they've punched their trimix c-card.  Quite frankly, while
> I could rag on typical N.E. gear configuration for hours, I'm
> fairly convinced that the statistics are so unevenly skewed
> on that front that it has nothing to do with gear or diving practices.
> 
> Hell, I could take a pair of bungee wings with two inflators,
> a Jersey Reel, a pony mounted between the doubles, a butt-mounted light,
> independant doubles, carry no backup lights, or just about any other
> combination of "stroke" gear, then penetrate 20 minutes into the 'Doria
> 100 times over, and I guarantee I'd come out on top, as would you, George.
> (as long as I ran a reel).
> 
> The problem isn't gear, although there's lots of room for
> improvement for many people on that front.  The problem is that
> people are stupid, and the Andrea Doria holds some sort
> of testosterone mystique that somehow holds the promise to compensate
> for not getting laid on prom night, or whatever.  Of course,
> the funny part is that it's not even all that great a wreck.
> 
> Screw it, that's Darwinism.  About 10 times as many people
> die each year climbing extreme mountains.
> 
> -Will
> 
> 
> >
> > Paltz, Art wrote:
> > >
> > > I think you guys are missing the point.  Drift diving with or without a
buoy
> > > is very dangerous.  Heck, leaving the other divers on a ball is dangerous
> > > when you are chasing the other divers.  If you had a chase boat maybe this
> > > is an option but I don't see how you're going to drag the drifting divers
> > > back to the main boat?  Having them drifting in a major shipping lane with
> > > or without a chase boat is very dangerous.  It's much safer to have the
> > > divers use proper equipment and a strong enough up-line to tie off to the
> > > wreck and support the divers.  Like I said before, if a container ship can
> > > run into a light tower siting up 150 feet, you think they are going to see
> > > and steer around a float ball, lift bag or little chase boat?  Your best
> > > option is to stay close to the boat.  Maybe the ship will see the dive
boat
> > > or can be called on the radio.  By the time an 800 foot container
traveling
> > > at 18 knots saw a float ball it would be too late to turn the ship.  I
> > > really don't think the container ships sit there and scan the water with
> > > binoculars miles in front of themselves looking for a float ball.  They
rely
> > > on their radar and if they are looking at it will steer to avoid a moored
> > > dive boat.
> > >
> > > A chase boat is a wonderful thing but I don't understand how you tow them
> > > back to the dive boat?  If you were doing a drift dive and the boat was
> > > following all the float balls, this is a very different situation.  I have
> > > done this and although I don't like it, it's very effective for this type
of
> > > diving.  I don't think it works well in a 2 knot current with a moored
dive
> > > boat.  Being dragged at 2 knots against a 2 knot current back to the dive
> > > boat is not my idea of an enjoyable deco hang.
> > >
> > > Art.
> > >
> > >                 -----Original Message-----
> > >                 From:   kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*]
> > >                 Sent:   Friday, August 27, 1999 8:56 AM
> > >                 To:     Scaleworks@ao*.co*
> > >                 Cc:     ststev@un*.co*; Paltz, Art;
> > > techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > >                 Subject:        Re: Jersey Up Line
> > >
> > >                 Release and put a buoy on the drifters, go back and stand
by
> > > the main
> > >                 line. Those on the main line should have already been
> > > checked for
> > >                 problems. If you could get these guys to coordinate,
> > > everyone could
> > >                 drift when the current is moving, and everyone could sit
> > > when it is not.
> > >
> > >                 Scaleworks@ao*.co* wrote:
> > >                 >
> > >                 > In a message dated 99-08-27 06:18:21 EDT,
> > > kirvine@sa*.ne* writes:
> > >                 >
> > >                 > << The main boat needs to be free
> > >                 >  from the wreck line, or releasable with a pelican, like
> > > the tuna
> > >                 >  fishermen use when they get a big one on chumming.>>
> > >                 >
> > >                 > Standard on the boat I frequent most, Captain Janet can
be
> > > off the mooring in
> > >                 > seconds. Should the dive boat chase down drifting divers
> > > and leave anyone on
> > >                 > the line or bottom with no support? The point that was
> > > made here, was that
> > >                 > there is no reason to tie off to a wreck in any
situation
> > > to do an emergency
> > >                 > ascent, that drifting deco in an open ocean is
> > > prefferable.
> > >                 >
> > >                 >  <<The Jersey up reel is one more accomodation to
farm
> > > animal stupidity -
> > >                 >  another peice of garbage used to compensate for doing
it
> > > wrong to start
> > >                 >  with. Another clusterfuck waiting to happen, like
bondage
> > > wings. >>
> > >                 >
> > >                 > But why? What is this clusterfuck scenario you are
> > > implying is waiting to
> > >                 > happen with a jersey upline?  If you are on a deep wreck
> > > in a team of 3, and
> > >                 > are relying on your reel as an upline, are you going to
> > > fit enough line on a
> > >                 > reel to account for scope in the line from the current,
> > > and that is strong
> > >                 > enough to withstand possible chafing on the bottom, and
> > > hold 3 divers in a
> > >                 > current?
> > >                 > What is the procedure you reccomend.?
> > >                 >
> > >                 > Kevin
> > > --
> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >


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