Capt JT,

I had to don my goob proof suit for this one.  Aside from the fact that this
reads like an English translation of a Korean VCR manual the content is
nevertheless pretty scary.  JT, is there a dark shadow following you around
everywhere?

I can just picture the scene on one of your ill fated dive dive trips. Right
out of a Quentin Tarantino movie sans the music.

JT, you need to take a tip from George and listen up. When you observe
stroke stupidity, quit being Mr. Politically correct and throw down the bs
flag.  If you had made a scene on the Seeker when you saw some stressed out
doughboy, heavily overweighted, with bondange wings and an air pony
preparing to make a serious dive you bear some culpability when you stand by
and do nothing but the recovery after they are dead.

I have seen George make a such a scene on a dive boat, when so called
"friends" showed up with stroke gear, that the hard headed stroke was forced
to leave.  When G. sees dangerous stupidity he calls it out no matter who is
on the receiving end.  When you are a nice friendly kinda guy and don't grab
the hand and pull the gun away from the suicide victim you are personally
remiss, altough you can always argue that it was none of your business.

Get on the right side of this JT or get out of it.  You are in a position to
set an example and in the end you will save lives and be more respected as a
result of it.

Best regards,


Bil

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>
To: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>
Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 9:47 AM
Subject: A broken clock is right twice a day


>George
>Have I said something about your mother or wife?I do not recall ever saying
>anything to deserve the type of anger in your emails , don't do it , it
>only proves what they all say about you , even the ones you dive with.
>
>>Capt JT - if these people are your "freinds" , then grow a pair and help
>>them out. Friends don't let friends do stupid things and continue to get
>>killed. Friends tell you when you are screwing up.
>
>Who says I don't?
>
>>
>>These people are complete strokes, and need more of a wakeup call then
>>they are obviously getting from the endless parade of death and disaster
>>that emanates from wreck diving.
>
>Death will come to us all , you do not have to be diving to die , lost a
>friend this year , auto accident on the way to a dive trip , he was making
>the right changes, I think the drive to the boat is more of a hazard than
>the gear.On the way home from my Doria trip a lady run off the road , she
>lay dead out the window , we were first ones there , we could not save her
>either.I once had some divers removing current meters from next to a bridge
>, a man stop his car and took his wallet out said good by to other
>motorist, jump off head first in the water , it was only 6ft deep , broke
>his neck, I could not save him either , but I recovered the body.
>
>>
>>Well, JT, today is Monday. Weather was nice up the East Coast this
>>weekend, so I am sure everyone was out diving. That means there must be
>>a body count - can you give me the weekend death toll, please, my
>>"friend" of the stroke?
>
>
>I have not heard of one , I would tell if it happened , I'm sure if you
>knew what I was doing this past weekend you would have been posting "its
>gonna happen this weekend".You are also wrong on the weather , it was a bit
>rough , 72 miles out seas built to 6ft , glad I got done with the 420ft
>dive I did on the Frankfurt before the wind picked up.
>
>
>
>>JT, HOW MANY WERE KILLED THIS WEEKEND, PLEASE?
>
>As far as I know NO ONE , one diver was found 5 miles from a boat in
>Hatteras , NC after 3 hrs missing and one diver up here sucked in some
>water on the surface and panicked.Both were OW1 divers.Does that count?I
>don't think they were "doing it right" , Should I send
>Alton the names of the boats? ;) Anything happen down there?Saw you post
>this:
>
>At 10:05 AM 7/20/99 -0400, kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote:
>>40 ft. They do not do chamber experiments of this type on college kids
>>at 40 meters - too risky . Despite what the liars in the bive business
>>want you to believe, DCS is totally explainable and so is the reality of
>>narcotic gas.
>
>George I cannot help but ask this , Trout told me that Ted Cole was the one
>that was bent so bad, since he is JJ side kick can you explain how this
>happen to him?
>
>
>JT
>Are we still on the same page?
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Capt JT wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi George
>>> I am back , were do you wish to go with this , we are on the same page ,
>>> but I will not get into a big debate with you as we may not share the
>same
>>> views on everything.I will discuss it as long as there are those out
>there
>>> that may learn from it.Just keep in mind that the ones you like to call
>>> strokes, I call friends.
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>>> At 06:53 PM 8/20/99 -0400, kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote:
>>> >JT - this is what I am saying exactly. Sure, I could dive any stupid
>>> >gear, but I'd rather dive while I am diving and not fight gear. I'd
also
>>> >rather be ready to deal when the shit hits the fan, instead of making
it
>>> >constantly hit the fan.
>>> >
>>> >We are on the same page here, it is just that I do not mind getting in
>>> >these guys' faces over it, since they are causing the problems.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Capt JT wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> George , I would be glad to talk about the basic things these new
>divers
>>> >> should already know before doing these kinds of dives , even with the
>CF of
>>> >> gear that the old timers use they are able to cheat death ,why, but
>it is
>>> >> the new techdiver that copies these guys that are the ones that die.I
>have
>>> >> a long weekend of diving if the weather is good and will be glad to
>openly
>>> >> talk about this stuff when I get back.
>>> >>
>>> >> JT
>>> >>
>>> >> At 06:07 AM 8/20/99 -0400, kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote:
>>> >> >JT, more interesting would be your account of how the rest of you
>lived
>>> >> >through this very tough dive, and for amusement, maybe a summary of
>some
>>> >> >of the more ridiculously stupid gear setups.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Capt JT wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Hi Joel
>>> >> >> First I don't know what boats you have been diving on , I have a
>guess ,
>>> >> >> but I don't think any of those would have and I know the Seeker
>did not
>>> >> >> have that much scope out , as the wreck comes up to 180ft and that
>is
>>> where
>>> >> >> it was tied in at, the line was nearly straight up and down , at
>the
>>> most
>>> >> >> 240ft was in the water , now if you were using a sand anchor you
>>> would need
>>> >> >> to have that much rope out(4-500ft) for the bottom depth of 240ft
>to
>>> hold
>>> >> >> the bottom.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> As for the diver changing his mind and doing the dive , that did
>not
>>> happen
>>> >> >> , have done much thinking and looking into the facts , the search
>for
>>> >> >> Charlie covered all the points that he could have been at,based on
>
>>> the all
>>> >> >> divers recall of the current direction and position of the boat
and
>>> he was
>>> >> >> found based on if he had passed out at 140-160ft.I will when I
>have time
>>> >> >> make a drawing and place it on my web site with the story that is
>>> already
>>> >> >> there if you do not understand.
>>> >> >> The Doria is a great dive don't you think , when was the last time
>you
>>> >> >> dived her?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> JT
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> www.capt-jt.com
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> At 01:02 AM 8/18/99 -0400, Joel Silverstein wrote:
>>> >> >> >But I want to know how an overweighted diver gets blown onto a
>wreck
>>> when
>>> >> >> >the current is holding the boat at anchor with 4-500 feet of rode
>>> out. The
>>> >> >> >angle just does not put him on the wreck. It puts him in the sand
>and
>>> >> >> >debris field unless.....
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >After he called the dive and blew off the other two he decided to
>>> take a
>>> >> >> >little dive and then had the problem on the bottom.  Take out
your
>>> >> >> >triangles and graph paper and try it out ...
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >regards
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >jds
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >At 10:41 PM 8/17/1999 -0400, Ted Green wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>     George,
>>>
>>> >> >> >>          Do you ever wonder why people don't follow what you
>preach
>>> >> >> >>or are reluctant to post information on diving fatalities? It's
>>> because
>>> >> >> >>they have to read crap from you in return for posting
>information.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>     Charlie didn't die because he was diving the Doria.
>>> >> >> >>     Charlie didn't die because he was wearing a pony bottle.
>>> >> >> >>     Charlie didn't die from the wrong mix in any of his tanks.
>>> >> >> >>     Charlie didn't die from not having a buddy going up the
>anchor
>>> line.
>>> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>     Charlie probably died from a CO2 hit. This death could have
>>> >> >> >>happened just as easily in a cave in Florida swimming against an
>>> >> >> >>out flow current, or doing a dive off Ft. Lauderdale trying to
>swim
>>> >> >> >>against the Gulf Stream current. Obviously a buddy might have
>>> >> >> >>been able to save him but there are certainly no guarantees.
>>> >> >> >>      George, why don't you direct your energy toward explaining
>the
>>> >> >> >>increased risk of a CO2 hit from over exertion while wearing
>>> >> >> >>doubles, stages, dry suit while trying to swim against a
current?
>>> >> >> >>Who knows, maybe you could prevent a future death by explaining
>>> >> >> >>the cause, symptoms, and treatment for excessive CO2 build up!
>>> >> >> >>       On second thought, don't say anything. They are more
>likely
>>> >> >> >>to listen to me because I'm not yelling at them.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>        To the Techdiver Forum:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>   There is a high probability that Charlie died as a result of
>a CO2
>>> >> >> >>hit which resulted in unconsciousness and finally drowning.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>When diving it is imperative not to over exert yourself for an
>>> >> >> >>extended period of time. Excessive exertion such as swimming
>>> >> >> >>against a current, combined with uncontrollable rapid shallow
>
>>> >> >> >>breathing may indicate an excessive CO2 build in your body. If
>the
>>> >> >> >>exertion is not halted immediately and breathing brought under
>>> >> >> >>control, the diver may experience a CO2 hit which refers to
>>> >> >> >>"blacking out". Drowning will likely occur unless your buddy is
>able
>>> >> >> >>bring you to the surface and resuscitate you.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>Ted
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>From:                 kirvine@sa*.ne*
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>Mike, the only reason for using a pony is abject stupidity, and
>the
>>> >> >> >>only reason they all skipped order it in their reports of the
>>> >> >> >>accidents is that they do not want to hurt anyones' feelings.
The
>>> >> >> >>carnage will continueuntil the smart guys just say "NO" to the
>boat
>>> >> >> >>monkees, and some of the worst boat monkess up there are the
>>> >> >> >>most entrenched big shots - in ourworld they are called STROKES,
>>> >> >> >>and in my opinion it is their stupidity that is accountable for
>the
>>> >> >> >>death toll directly or indirectly.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>If I were doing what I do and recommending dangerous stupid
>>> >> >> >>practices, I would be as criminal as these guys are. The only
>>> >> >> >>difference is I know better, I learn, I recognize when I am
>wrong and
>>> >> >> >>fix it, and I admit it and point it out. These half wits are
>>> incapable of
>>> >> >> >>any of this. Boy , would I love to get some of these strokes in
>the
>>>
>>> >> >> >>water to show them jsut how bad they really are, since people
>>> >> >> >>dying around them does not have any impact.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>From:                 <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>> Ted, there has never been a manifold failure, and the mode of
>>> >> failure is
>>> >> >> >>> to lose the knob with a freeflwoing reg and no isolator -
>>> solution is
>>> >> >> >>> "buddy", a dirty word up there.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> The ari pony or any pony is so stupid and so ridicoulous as to
>not
>>> >> >> >>> merrit anything but laugter, if it were not for the track
>record at
>>> >> >> >>> hand.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> >> >>> I dive further into caves than most of these wrecks are
>offshore,
>>> >> and I
>>> >> >> >>> have no pony bottle - that is patently absurd. If they are
>>> scared, and
>>> >> >> >>> do not trust the buddy, maybe they need to carry a buddy
>bottle of
>>> >> >> >>> proper mix as a stage, but this is also total bullshit. They
>need to
>>> >> >> >>> start doing it right.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> Secondly, these guys have bullshit rigs and do not know how to
>>> operate
>>> >> >> >>> as buddies, and that is why the are having problems. Quit
>defending
>>> >> >> >>> these morons. You are in the business, and it is your ass they
>are
>>> >> >> >>> kicking , not mine. I dive wherever and whenever I want no
>matter
>>> how
>>> >> >> >>> badly the rest of the world screws up, as evidenced by the
>fact that
>>> >> >> >>> they let us back into Wakulla after the Stone Fiasco, and they
>asked
>>> >> >> >>> Jarrod to come do the Britannic.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> Ted ,these guys are idiots - they need a wakeup call, and
>>> obviously no
>
>>> >> >> >>> number of deaths is going to do the trick. They need to get
>>> banned from
>>> >> >> >>> diving out there to make the point.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> Ted Green wrote:
>>> >> >> >>> >
>>> >> >> >>> >     George,
>>> >> >> >>> >         While I am not a proponent of this practise, divers
>who
>>> >> put a 30
>>> >> >> >>> > or 40 cuft. pony on the back of their doubles, do so to have
>a
>>> >> >> >>> > completely independent source of gas. The reason for this
>they
>>> >> >> >>> > claim is that if you strike the isolator and break the
>manifold
>>> >> >> >>> > causing a rapid gas loss, there probably will not be a knob
>>> left to
>>> >> >> >>> > close the isolator down with. This practice is a hold over
>from
>>> >> >> >>> > single outlet doubles.
>>> >> >> >>> >
>>> >> >> >>> >      As to the cause of Charlie's death; I talked to one of
>the
>>> mates
>>> >> >> >>> > on the boat a week after Charlie's death. He said that
>Charlie had
>>> >> >> >>> > lost the travel line that runs from the point of entry to
the
>>> anchor
>>> >> >> >>> > line. Instead of surfacing and regaining the line, he swam
>against
>>> >> >> >>> > the current to the anchor line and had to let go of the
>anchor
>>> line
>>> >> >> >>> > several times on his descent to go around divers hanging on
>the
>>> >> >> >>> > line. The mate felt that Charlie over exerted himself trying
>to
>>> catch
>>> >> >> >>> > up to one of his two buddies and swimming against the
>current. By
>>> >> >> >>> > the time he reached 165', he may have had a massive CO2
>>> >> >> >>> > headache. He signalled to his buddies he was aborting the
>dive,
>>> >> >> >>> > and blackout on the way up.
>>>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>> >
>>> >> >> >>> >       While all the crap that has been posted over the last
>few
>>> weeks
>>> >> >> >>> > may have been possible. I believe that a CO2 hit is a more
>likely
>>> >> >> >>> > explanation for him aborting the dive at 165' and blacking
>out
>>> on the
>>> >> >> >>> > way up.
>>> >> >> >>> >
>>> >> >> >>> > Ted
>>> >> >> >>> >
>>> >> >> >>> > From:                   <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
>>> >> >> >>> > Subject:                Re: Petting the Air Pony: was Re:
>Doria
>>> >> Deaths
>>> >> >> >- Let's dive some air
>>> >> >> >>> >
>>> >> >> >>> >
>>> >> >> >>> > > Maybe also we could get one of the rocket scientist up
>there to
>>> >> >> tell us
>>> >> >> >>> > > why ponying a bottle behind your back with the bottle
>turned on
>>> >> with
>>> >> >> >the
>>> >> >> >>> > > reg over your shoulder mixed in with the other two makes
>any
>>> sense,
>>> >> >> and
>>> >>
>>> >> >> >>> > > why trying to combine a totally unnecessary bailout, a
suit
>>> >> inflation,
>>> >> >> >>> > > and a travel gas all in one where the gas in question,
>AIR, is
>>> >> not the
>>> >> >> >>> > > right gas for any of those applications, and why it is a
>good
>>> >> idea to
>>> >> >> >>> > > put a reg on an inflation bottle , why we need a pony with
>a
>>> >> dual port
>>> >> >> >>> > > manifold, why we need it behind us, why it should be AIR,
>and
>>> why
>>> >> >> >nobody
>>> >> >> >>> > > up there has ever bothered to question any of this
>nonsense.
>>> >> >> >>> >
>
>>> >> >> >>> > --
>>> >> >> >>> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>> >> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>> >> >> >>> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>> >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> --
>>> >> >> >>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>> >> >> >>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>> >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>--
>>> >> >> >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
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>>> >> >> >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >--
>>> >> >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >--
>>> >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>> >> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>>--
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>
>
>
>
>

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