I use argon for my bike...denser, thus leaks out slower.  I am curious the
thermal properties on a hot day...Think I would be more prone to blowouts?

Now *this* could be an interesting thread.

Trout
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Werner <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*>
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; Joel Silverstein
<joelsilverstein@wo*.at*.ne*>
Cc: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>;
bdi@wh*.ne* <bdi@wh*.ne*>; Mark the Nark Andrews
<extreme@de*.fr*.co*.uk*>; Afonso Pinheiro Junior
<afonso0@ib*.ne*>; Barrie Heard <bheard@dc*.ne*.au*>; Bill Nadeau
<tekdiver@na*.ar*.co*>; Dick Rutkowski <dick@hy*.co*>; Erika
Haley <haley@ca*.ky*>; Fabio Amaral <fabio_amaral@ya*.co*>; Fabio Ruberti
<ruberti@io*.it*>; Frans Vandermolen <75204.1243@co*.co*>;
wahoo2001@ao*.co* <wahoo2001@ao*.co*>; WahooJan@ao*.co*
<WahooJan@ao*.co*>;
Garlooent@ao*.co* <Garlooent@ao*.co*>; Garry Howland
<ghowland@fw*.gu*.ne*>; Gil <gildiver@di*.co*.br*>; Gina & Mark Leonard
<ginamark@at*.ne*>; Gregg Stanton <gstanton@ma*.fs*.ed*>; IANTD
Czech <kony@un*.cz*>; IANTD Germany <iantd@su*.de*>; IANTD Greece
<iantdgr@at*.mb*.gr*>; IANTD Holland <tekkie@xs*.nl*>; IANTD Ireland
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Training <iantdjp@di*.co*>; IANTD Korea <aad@sa*.co*>; IANTD
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Cochrane <Cochrane@ac*.co*>; Lamar Hires <lamar@di*.co*>; Nick
Jewson <NickJewson@co*.co*>; Paul Lijnen <paull@vi*.uu*.be*>;
Paul Neilsen <mandarin@ga*.ne*.hk*>; REG BOER @ BARBARA HENSBY
<regboer@bi*.co*>; Richard Nordstrom <74663.1663@co*.co*>;
Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.or*>; Shelley orlowski
<orlowski@at*.ne*>; Vebjørn Karlsen <karlsenv@on*.no*>; Victor
Williams <diving@sp*.co*>; William J Turbeville II
<bturbo@ga*.ne*>; Jr." <ahall@da*.co*>; cavers@ca*.co*
<cavers@ca*.co*>; Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>; kirvne@sa*.ne*
<kirvne@sa*.ne*>; "\"Jess Armantrout\"" <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>;
Dan L. Volker <dlv@ga*.ne*>; "\"Jody Everett\""
<jeverett@ne*.co*>; Lawrence Orchard-London
<lorchard@Ru*.co*>; john@ro*.co*.uk*
<john@ro*.co*.uk*>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: DEEP AIR VOTE


>Joel, this thread is absolutely one of the most misguided posts I've ever
>read. You and the entire cc list of this post must be the toughest divers
>out there. No one I dive with ever uses air for anything, except to inflate
>our bike tires. Air is absolutely the worst diving gas available.  As you
>began your little rant, I must admit that the first sentence is the only
one
>that made any sense. In fact, air should be completely banned from all
>diving and training. It is preposterous to even conclude that anyone can
>function rationally on air at 150' let alone 175'. You must still not get
>it. Why would you ever use air? Trimix should always be used below 130',
>with nitrox used for everything shallower.  Not one diver I dive with even
>uses any mix with greater than 100' EAD. This is one of the single largest
>problems with so called 'tech' diving today.
>    No one can work on air efficiently at the depths you advocate. This is
>like saying we should all go get drunk and drive our cars to practice being
>intoxicated while operating a motor vehicle. Most of us are all lucky to
>have survived deep air and its associated wrath upon our bodies. From the
>narcosis to the damage done during decompression, AIR IS THE WRONG CHOICE.
>Air should never be your safety gas.  Switching from trimix to air at depth
>is a recipe for disaster. This is what is contributing to many of the
>fatalities occurring today. We are all in a position to change this, in
fact
>I even see that Tom Mount is finally coming around. No doubt it only took
>the insanity of Mark Andrews to open his eyes. You and everyone on the cc
>list (I must admit one of the largest collection of DIW divers I have ever
>seen) need to stop yapping and start listening to those of us who are doing
>it, and doing it safely. I agree that experience is one of the greatest
>attributes of good divers, but consistently DIW for so long is not
>experience it is just luck. Good divers DIR, not get by on chance and luck.
>    This post of your is almost as ridiculous as you trying to tell us on
>freeattic how to change stage bottles. You for one need to quit diving all
>together before you get someone killed with your misinformation.
>
>AIR at any depth = NO
>
>Chris
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Joel Silverstein <joelsilverstein@wo*.at*.ne*>
>To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>Cc: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>;
><bdi@wh*.ne*>; Mark the Nark Andrews <extreme@de*.fr*.co*.uk*>;
>Afonso Pinheiro Junior <afonso0@ib*.ne*>; Barrie Heard
<bheard@dc*.ne*.au*>;
>Bill Nadeau <tekdiver@na*.ar*.co*>; Dick Rutkowski
><dick@hy*.co*>; Erika Haley <haley@ca*.ky*>; Fabio Amaral
><fabio_amaral@ya*.co*>; Fabio Ruberti <ruberti@io*.it*>; Frans
Vandermolen
><75204.1243@co*.co*>; <wahoo2001@ao*.co*>; <WahooJan@ao*.co*>;
><Garlooent@ao*.co*>; Garry Howland <ghowland@fw*.gu*.ne*>; Gil
><gildiver@di*.co*.br*>; Gina & Mark Leonard <ginamark@at*.ne*>;
>Gregg Stanton <gstanton@ma*.fs*.ed*>; IANTD Czech <kony@un*.cz*>;
IANTD
>Germany <iantd@su*.de*>; IANTD Greece <iantdgr@at*.mb*.gr*>; IANTD
>Holland <tekkie@xs*.nl*>; IANTD Ireland <IANTDIRL@ao*.co*>; IANTD JAPAN
><iantdjp
>Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:46 AM
>Subject: Re: DEEP AIR VOTE
>
>
>> Dear Fellow Divers,
>>
>> With the current state of gas availability using non-narcotic breathing
>> mixes is not necessary to conduct dives deep with air. However it would
>> behove most of those who are out there on the training and working end of
>> this business to at least be able to work and function with N2 pressures
>of
>> 5.0. There may come a time when it is needed.  As I look over this long
>> list, it is pretty clear that most everyone here has done successful
dives
>> to 175 fsw (and deeper) with air (if not they would not be on the list).
>>
>> Most if not all of use were doing air dives in the late 80's early 90's
>> when the development of technical (read TRIMIX) was making its way
through
>> the scuba ranks. Key people like Billy Deans made the switch to gas and
>set
>> the pattern for open ocean mix diving, but still he would consider 175
fsw
>> for air to be a reasonable depth that people should be able to use air
>for.
>>  The USN and most every commercial operation still uses air to depths of
>> 190 fsw on a regular basis using hat and hose.
>>
>> As much as we would like to STAMP OUT DEEP AIR -- there will always be
>> those who will take anything and everything deeper than they should. We
>> have little control of that. However, we can take them one at a time and
>> provide them with the tools and information to make a rational informed
>> decision as to what type of dive they will do.
>>
>> I do not use air for any of our training deeper than 150 fsw. I do not
>> belive that the students can conformably do the work they need to do
under
>> a greater level of narcosis. Frankly if a diver cannot use that viable
gas
>> to that depth then they have no business diving deeper than 100 fsw.
>>
>> We need to keep in perspective that much of what we know today came from
>> some brave (albeit misinformed) people who stepped out farther and deeper
>> than others would care to at a time when they had a need to go look at
>> something.
>>
>> Unfortunately there had been some successful failures along the way. But
>we
>> all learned from them. There were also successful survivors, who have
been
>> more than instrumental in the development of our activities.
>>
>> We are about to go through a new cycle in divers. The accidents will rise
>> because these divers have no reference point. The average diver today
>> buying "techincal" gear has less than 50 career dives. What was once
>> equipment for the "hard core deep divers" is now commonplace in most
every
>> dive store.  Just like fast cars, and fast planes, the inexperienced find
>> this attractive and belive they can do things they are just not prepared
>to
>> do. We each have a responsiblity to head that off at the pass. These
>divers
>> need to put in a few hundred practicle dives before they can begin
>> attempting some of these deeper dives, on ANY gas. A CLEAR HEAD IS NOT AN
>> EXCUSE FOR EXPERIENCE. We each have a responsiblity to question Should
>they
>> Dive Tech?
>>
>> DEEP AIR
>>
>> Air deeper than 175 fsw for practicle diving -- NO
>> Air deeper than 150 fsw for training -- NO
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Joel Silverstein
>> http://www.nitroxdiver.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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