Now if I had wrote that lawrence you would have called it pontificating,
and I've never claimed to be God, I just do the best that I can.
    Just imagine how diffrent it would have been, if you knew about dir from
the begining, i doubt that you would have gone to 90 M on air.
    Many divers have visted this list, seen the antics and gone else where
(unlike you, not all have done deep air before, wanting to learn the *right*
way from the start), and are now possibly doing those deep 90M dives that
you used to to - maybe they wont be as lucky.
    What if kirvine had said "we do it this way because.........." and there
followed a sensible debate, you would have learned a lot more a lot quicker,
and told your mates about this great new method, how long did it take you to
find it all out?

    Grant


>
>I started to put together a brief of summary of what my aims are in diving
>in response to your invitation, and then realised that my own evolution as
a
>diver may serve the purpose of proving a number of points we have been
>arguing over. This is not an exercise in self aggrandisement, most of it is
>embarrassing, I think others might benefit though.
>
>Interestingly it touches on a number of past hot topics on this list, like
>"deep air diving", "Rob Palmer", "Modified Ocean DIR", the "UK Tech Scene"
>etc. So here goes...
>
>I was a late starter to diving, couldn't get enough of it, joined my local
>club and trained with them whilst training with a local school under
another
>regime, badge collecting in parallel if you like. Pretty soon it became
>apparent to me that not all instructors or divers who "have been doing it
>for years" were actually all that good at diving. That's not a dig at you
>Grant, just I'm sick of people thinking that just because they're an
>instructor or having been diving X years, they're God.
>
>After a while in the club, I heard the stories of the "deep week" group.
>These guys, for one or two weeks a year, would dive deep wrecks off the UK
>coast, they used air (there was no trimix back in those days), they were
>mostly fit guys, some were serious marathon runners, some British cave
>divers. By the time I got wind of this, the group was disbanding as the
>members got older had families etc. Nonetheless, it fascinated me and the
>thought of such adventure. I started to casually find out how people went
>about such dives currently, I then encountered this thing called "Technical
>Diving", it seemed to be the way to go.
>
>So I started making enquiries who I could train with in the UK, then there
>weren't all the pages of adverts for it in magazines. Around this time I
>heard about the "unique" opportunity of going on a Red Sea liveaboard with
>(the late) Rob Palmer. I had learnt something about him in reading things
>and new he was a formidable British cave diver and had recently taken over
>the European arm of TDI. I booked on. Spent the week diving with him, there
>were some American cave divers with a weird long hose arrangement which
>intrigued me. The week involved deep air dives to 60-70msw and I got
>severely narked on one occasion. Par for the course I thought, and believed
>it could be managed by building up for it. The week ended and I stayed on
to
>do more "deep air" training, culminating in 90msw in the Blue Hole, Dahab.
>Though the whole trip was fantastic for someone so naive as I was then, the
>most important thing I got from it, was a scrap of paper with the techdiver
>email address.
>
>Back in the UK, I started looking for specialised boat trips for Technical
>divers, and through conversation with (the late) Harry Railing, another
>genuinely nice guy, I came across a boat operating out of Weymouth. Booked
>on this with my 2 x 10ltr 300bar twinset, twin Zeagle wings, 300bar 10ltr
>stage bottle & helmet and went diving. I met a number of other divers who
>were all really nice guys too, and as a result went and got a cage guard
for
>my manifold. On a subsequent dive, I almost killed myself whilst getting
>trapped in a wreck at 48msw, narked low vis and diving solo. But hell this
>was making me a better diver I thought because I got through it, so I was
>happy.
>
>Eventually I got access to email and dug out that scrap of paper and
>subscribed to this list. Over the subsequent days as I read the emails, I
>saw nearly every bit of kit I had spent a fortune on, get trashed by some
>guys, one who called himself George Irvine III, he had a somewhat rude way
>of making his point and I took exception to this. So I sent my first post,
>in response, the situation escalated and resulted in me mailing him a very
>terse and rude mail back. The result was a private mail saying please don't
>email me privately again, you don't know who I am and what I do. He was
>right and I didn't care, however the points we had been arguing over left
>their mark, even though they contradicted pretty much everything about the
>group I dived with, something had struck a chord and unsettled me. Anyway,
I
>stuck with the list, and it took some time, but bit by bit I understood the
>arguments, started to change my kit, and drew away from some of the people
>and practices I had been involved with. By chance I started communicating
>with some divers in the UK who had been to Florida and used the Hogarthian
>rig. They are now known as GAS-UK. If it hadn't been for George et al and
>his manner I wouldn't have taken any notice, I would have agreed to
>disagree, carried on, and probably injured myself by now.
>
>Around this time, a friend of mine in the club, started to get interested
in
>my Hogarthian rig and we embarked on a diving partnership. We progressed in
>experience and trained for mix with Jack Ingle, who had an open mind about
>kit configuration, which was good since many mix instructors here would not
>generally have allowed you to have both stages on the left. Though he was
>adament about not using 100%. We discussed this with him, listened to his
>point of view and decided to stay with 100%. We made some more
>contacts/friends through the course and have our own gas mixing set up as a
>result, we dive together from time to time, though as a group they are not
>strictly DIR, but then over time some of them are changing their kit more
in
>line with DIR. I guess if I was a true DIR Evangelist, I wouldn't dive with
>these guys, but then for them to actually see DIR working better over a
>length of time, is probably the most convincing argument.
>
>Later our contacts expanded further within what was loosely becoming known
>as the DIR-UK community. As a result we are now able to charter boats for
>wreck diving and fill them with DIR mix divers only. Some of these same
>divers (including my diving partner and I) have been to Florida to take
>training with GUE in cave diving, initially to enhance their wreck
>penetration skills, and thereafter have been hooked on the caves, so
>re-visit. It has also led to us looking at cave diving in France for next
>year. We are the reverse of the normal, in we use Hogarthian rigging etc
>primarily for Ocean diving with no modifications when we go cave diving.
>
>It is now my aim, along with the others, to fine tune our procedures so
that
>we can have a core team capable of exploring the deeper unknown wrecks
>around the UK safely & efficiently. Making use of Gavin scooters and, for
>some, Halcyon rebreathers. Hopefully in time, something of interest to the
>UK's general diving community will be achieved, resulting in articles in
>magazines that enable the DIR approach to be seen in action, thus we reach
a
>wider audience than the Internet, since the Internet will never be embraced
>by a significant number of the UK Technical scene on account of computers
>appearing too nerdy. Least if they do use a PC its to run ProPlanner in
DOS.
>There appears to be a similar problem in the caving community in Florida.
>You'd think there they'd all know about DIR and be using it there,
>frustratingly not the case from what I saw, since there are many just not
in
>the loop.
>
>Lastly, George is coming over shortly to dive with our group, since at last
>he can stick with rule no 1 whilst diving in the UK. I for one am looking
>forward to this since it is kind of ironic given my first encounter with
him
>by email years ago. Anyone else who dives following the DIR approach is
>equally welcome to contact us and dive here in the UK as part of our
>evolving team.
>
>So Grant, hopefully, now you can see why I don't agree with changing the
>message delivery style of anyone who is talking sense and trying to get the
>notice of the naive individual who maybe surrounded by people doing it all
>horribly wrong in their immediate diving community.
>
>Over the years you can see a cycle. A death occurs, George wades in and in
>affect says "what the f*ck is going on?", some start jumping on his back
>about his delivery style. Things quieten down again till the next incident.
>Then we go round again. Grin and bare it ol' chap, nothings going to
change.
>If its annoying you it could mean you're learning something.
>
>Anyway that's it from me on all this, till the next time round ;-)
>
>Best
>Loz
>mailto:lorchard@ru*.co*
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Grant Jones [mailto:grant@ow*.fr*.co*.uk*]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 8:49 PM
>To: Tech Diver; Lawrence Orchard-London
>Subject: Re: Sick of Rants
>
>
>lawrence wrote:
>
>>I dont need a pat on the head from George or anyone else to do what I do
>>thank you very much.
>
>    I believe you......
>
>>When replying to mail I use the "reply to all" button, so if you have
>mailed
>>George and the list, then you, the list and George get my reply.
>
>    Funny that, I only reply to the person concerned and this list
>assuming it wasn't a private post)
>
>> Like I said you sound like a newbie, not as a diver but as
>>a subscriber to this list, and email programs.
>
>    Oh I see,I should have released thats what you ment,  Been on here for
>about a year now
>
>>FYI, I am always suspicious of divers who pontificate how many years they
>>have been diving
>
>    Just clarifying my position as a *newbie*, now if your post had asked
>how
>long I had been on the list, I would have told you a year.
>    BTW - is that your idea of pontificate ?, to ask a question, then slag
>the answer?
>
>and what agencies they have collected badges from.
>
>    And what agencies are those then?, I don't think I mentioned which
ones.
>
>...What
>>impresses me is what objectives people have achieved and how they went
>about
>>it or what they are working towards.
>>
>>So, as Jim requested, why dont you tell us a little about yourself and
what
>>you're trying to achieve,
>
>    To promote save diving - whatever the agency - and train safe divers,
to
>steer people towards information sources, so that they can better them
>selves - I can't make them, only encourage them.
>
>    Oh.......and make the world a better place.......:-)
>
>    Thats me, now its your turn......
>
>Grant
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>that would make far more interesting reading I'm
>>sure.
>>
>>Best
>>Loz
>>mailto:lorchard@ru*.co*
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Grant Jones [mailto:grant@ow*.fr*.co*.uk*]
>>Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 8:32 PM
>>To: Tech Diver; Lawrence Orchard-London
>>Subject: Re: Sick of Rants
>>
>>
>>
>>lawrence wrote:
>>
>>>Grant you're becoming tedious.
>>>As far as I can see from the archives you have contributed nothing.
>>
>>    Ah lawrence, still looking for pats on the head ? ( i did wonder why
>you
>>kept cc'ing your posts to kirvine) - And I disagree with you - kirvine
>>posted today without mentioning *stroke* once (doria death's), and asked
>>questions in a nearly adult fashion, it made a refreshing change, and I
>hope
>>to learn from the answers - if he gets an answer.
>>
>>
>>>Currently you are emulating the typical newbie, which normally starts off
>>by
>>>jumping in and attacking peoples delivery style.
>>
>>    Hardly a *newbie* after 14 yrs diving, but I admit i'm still learning,
>>do YOU think that by insulting people and crowing when some one dies is a
>>good way to promote the dir setup?
>>
>>
>>>Post something useful or shut up.
>>
>>    I belive my posts do serve a use-ful purpose, and if only one life is
>>saved by a diver seeing clearly the DIR message, instead of the guano,
then
>>I will feel justified
>>
>>    Grant
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Loz
>>>mailto:lorchard@ru*.co*
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Grant Jones [mailto:grant@ow*.fr*.co*.uk*]
>>>Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 12:51 AM
>>>To: Tech Diver; kirvine@sa*.ne*
>>>Subject: Re: Sick of Rants
>>>
>>>
>>>kirvine wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>GRANT, great post - keep up the good work. ( bit of a hypocrite, are
>>>>we?)
>>>
>>>    Glad you appreciate the effort, but why a hypocrite?
>>>
>>>    Grant
>>>>
>>>>Grant Jones wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>>     Kind of proves my point -" monkey see, monkey do" - thanks for the
>>>>> insight into your mentality jim
>>>>>
>>>>>     Grant
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Sender: Grant Jones  Date: 8/13/99 2:13 PM
>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>>>--
>>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>>>
>>--
>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>
>
>
>--
>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>

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