On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, scott wrote:

> Rob Palmer was deep air. We are talking rebreather deaths here, but I
> suppose deep air is nearly as stupid as diving with the unit/O2 off,
> something a pre-breathe or other basic checks should alert you too. Most of
> the RB deaths have resulted from an oversight/complacency/sheer
> stupidity/diver error, call it what you will. Im not sure what you expect
> Tom to be able to do. I can't remeber a death (or accident) on a rb
> recently where the unit has failed to do exactly what it should. The diver
> has essentially killed themself everytime through a lapse of basic skills.
> Even if instruction standards were overhauled I think even the most basic
> instruction covers most of the points that have resulted in an accident.

This is absolutely true.  The simple truth of the matter is that
a well-trained (in the sense of responsible and circumspect, more
than just taking a training course) rebreather diver can get out of almost 
any bad situation, and more importantly, probably wouldn't get into
90% of bad situations to begin with.

Eliminating "natural causes" and Force Majeur, which we probably 
have to do, since there will most likely never be a clear answer in
those cases, we are left with dive procedures and preparation
for emergency management.  In literally every reported rebreather
death that I can think of where the basic situation is known,
it *always* comes back to lack of diver preparation.  Always.

There are alot of CCR bashers out there, but that's really
crap - almost all of the manufactured units out there are of 
good quality, and closed-circuit rebreathers in general
have an excellent track record among the one group of people who
take training more seriously than anyone else - the military.

Literally millions of hours, probably tens of millions, have 
been racked up by the military diving closed-circuit rigs, 
and there have only been a few deaths, which is really quite 
good, when you compare that to the civilian record.  Especially
when you consider that the military divers carry NO independant
bailout gas, and are 100% reliant on the rebreather to keep
them alive.

So in short, I think people should stop bitching about cover-ups
and realize that some people are basically boneheads, and don't
place a high enough value on their own life to adequately
prepare themselves.  Consequently, you get "accidents".  Sure,
it's tragic, but I really don't care about those people, except
from a failure analysis perspective.  Frankly, they make me
more cautious, which I'm thankful for.

As an example, look at that guy who toxed because the dive shop 
filled his bailout tank with 80%, and labelled it "air".  While that 
borders on not being the diver's fault, I know *I* haven't dived 
a tank of "air" since without analyzing it first - and I won't ever
again, unless the shop only pumps air.

-Will




 
> Scott
> 
> ----------
> > From: Jody Everett (E-mail 2) <jodyev@in*.co*>
> > To: 'Tom Mount' <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
> > Cc: 'Rebreathers (E-mail)' <rebreather@nw*.co*>; 'Techdiver
> (E-mail)' <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Subject: Official Report- yeah right.
> > Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 8:43 AM
> > 
> > What does the official report have to say about Rob Palmer?  What would
> it
> > have said about Henry Kendall if everyone had waited?  Somebody needs to
> > call a spade a spade.  You are, or maybe I should say were, in the
> perfect
> > position to do this but you continually refuse.  That's inexcusable.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rebreather-request@nw*.co*
> > [mailto:rebreather-request@nw*.co*]On Behalf Of Tom Mount
> > Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 5:16 PM
> > To: Jody Everett (E-mail 2)
> > Cc: 'Rebreathers (E-mail)'; 'Techdiver (E-mail)'
> > Subject: Re: Rebreather/Diving Age Limit?
> > 
> > Jody
> > I think we should wait till the legal report on a divers death is
> published
> > before assuming anything. Again I think most diving accidents.deaths
> result
> > from human error not a physiological event although some are due to the
> > persons physiology
> > 
> > Respectfully yours,
> > Tom Mount
> > CEO IANTD World HQ
> > http://www.iantd.com
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jody Everett (E-mail 2) <jodyev@in*.co*>
> > To: 'Tom Mount' <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
> > Cc: 'Rebreathers (E-mail)' <rebreather@nw*.co*>; 'Techdiver
> (E-mail)'
> > <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 4:37 PM
> > Subject: RE: Rebreather/Diving Age Limit?
> > 
> > 
> > >Tom,
> > >No need to defend your fitness level.  I'm sure that you and many others
> on
> > >the list are in much better shape than I am.  That was not the point of
> any
> > >of the emails I've sent in the last two days.  The post that started
> this
> > >all was full of sarcasm.  While I'd entertain the notion that some
> divers
> > do
> > >kick the bucket as a result of heart attack and other natural causes
> during
> > >the dive, I find it very hard to believe the recent rash of "heart
> attacks"
> > >that have taken place while diving.  You can't tell me that any
> logically
> > >thinking (I know that's a stretch for many divers involved.) person
> would
> > >honestly believe that all of the recent deaths with rebreather diving
> and
> > >wrecking diving really resulted from heart attacks/natural causes as
> > >claimed.
> > >
> > >It is really getting to be the stock answer for the cause of death.  Do
> you
> > >truly believe that?  I don't!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Tom Mount [mailto:TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*]
> > >Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 4:05 PM
> > >To: Jody Everett (E-mail 2)
> > >Cc: Rebreathers (E-mail); Techdiver (E-mail)
> > >Subject: Re: Rebreather/Diving Age Limit?
> > >
> > >Jody
> > >
> > >No, young athletes that were tested include one 24 year old who had an
> FSU
> > >swimming scholarship and spent 13 years as a competitive swimmer,
> currently
> > >he is still swimming, cycling, lifting weights and is one of my Karate
> > >students. His vo2 max is well above average and definitely qualifies as
> an
> > >athlete.
> > >
> > > Another is a 30 year old who is also one of my karate students and who
> in
> > >addition also runs 4 times a week for one hour and lifts weights,  I do
> not
> > >know exactly how strong he is but he benches 325 for 29 reps and as he
> is
> > >only 6 foot at 195 pounds with about 10% body fat I would say he is
> rather
> > >strong and fit. His VO2 max is also well above average and into the
> athlete
> > >category rather good.
> > >
> > >The other two are similar in background and condition.
> > >
> > >I do not know what your expertise in physiology is but you obviously do
> not
> > >realize how conditioned one may keep them selves in they are really
> devoted
> > >to it. Personally I have been training every since I was 12 years old
> and I
> > >think the long term benefits do pay off. and no I'm not as good as I was
> 20
> > >years ago but much better condition than most of the young active people
> I
> > >meet. Of course a younger person with the same training drive should be
> in
> > >better condition and would most likely have a higher Vo2 max, But that
> does
> > >not prevent mine from bing good.
> > >
> > >Even though I should not bring it up I think you will discover that G
> like
> > >wise at 47 scored higher than the group he tested with who were also
> well
> > >conditioned young men and ladies. So you may wish to rethink your age
> and
> > >fitness theory as it pertains to individuals vs statistics.and age group
> > >population averages.
> > >
> > >While my training is not extreme it does consist of a minimum of 1 hour
> > >every day and most of the time at least two hours or more including
> > >1. Karate (41 years in this art before that Judo with boxing before
> during
> > >and currently)
> > >2. Running
> > >3. Cycling (fall, winter and spring I do not do it in the summer as I
> pit
> > >more time into other areas in the summer)
> > >4. Roller blading
> > >5. Weights
> > >6. Kyak
> > >7. Swimming ( mostly in the summer and fall)
> > >8. Stairmaster (one of my favorites is doing what I call survival
> training
> > >and is 40 minutes at the highest level on the Stairmaster doing a
> minimum
> > of
> > >400)
> > >9 I also use a time works machine, and various other aerobic machines
> > >primarily when weather is bad enough to prevent my getting outside to
> > >workout.
> > >
> > >I  think most diving accidents come down to human error,
> > >
> > >Speaking of all this what is your fitness level???
> > >
> > >
> > >Respectfully yours,
> > >Tom Mount
> > >CEO IANTD World HQ
> > >http://www.iantd.com
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Jody Everett (E-mail 2) <jodyev@in*.co*>
> > >To: 'Tom Mount' <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
> > >Cc: Rebreathers (E-mail) <rebreather@nw*.co*>; Techdiver (E-mail)
> > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > >Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 3:03 PM
> > >Subject: RE: Rebreather/Diving Age Limit?
> > >
> > >
> > >>Tom,
> > >>After 60, "elite" just means that you aren't already dead.  While you
> > might
> > >>be in good shape, especially considering your age, 4 young "athletes"
> > >should
> > >>be able to better your VO2MAX.  If they can't, they might want to
> > >reconsider
> > >>using the term "athlete".  That is unless by young you mean anything
> less
> > >>than 55.
> > >>
> > >>Question for you:  If 4 young, well-conditioned, "athletes" went out
> and
> > >>dove the Andrea Doria using big yellow rebreathers, what are the
> chances
> > >>that all four will die during the dive as a result of heart attack or
> > other
> > >>natural causes?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: rebreather-request@nw*.co*
> > >>[mailto:rebreather-request@nw*.co*]On Behalf Of Tom Mount
> > >>Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 9:30 AM
> > >>To: Karl Kramer; Jody Everett
> > >>Cc: Techdiver (E-mail); RB flaming list
> > >>Subject: Re: Rebreather/Diving Age Limit?
> > >>
> > >>Karl
> > >>I'm sixty, and my heart is perfect BP 130 over 70 pulse 50.  I just
> > >>completed a physical stress test with a rating of elite (whatever that
> > >>means). and a VO2 that exceeded 4 young athletes who took the test at
> the
> > >>same time I did.  So age is not the problem, fitness and maintaining
> good
> > >>condition is the controlling factor. I have dropped 20 year olds out of
> > >>programs due to their fitness level and had some of my most fit divers
> > over
> > >>40.
> > >>
> > >>Respectfully yours,
> > >>Tom Mount
> > >>CEO IANTD World HQ
> > >>http://www.iantd.com
> > >>
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: Karl Kramer <Karl.W.Kramer@ph*.un*.de*>
> > >>To: Jody Everett <jodyev@in*.co*>
> > >>Cc: Techdiver (E-mail) <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; RB flaming list
> > >><rebreather@nw*.co*>
> > >>Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 5:03 AM
> > >>Subject: Re: Rebreather/Diving Age Limit?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>From:           "Jody Everett" <jodyev@in*.co*>
> > >>
> > >>> Maybe all you guys over 40 should just give up diving.  There seems
> to
> > be
> > >>a
> > >>> much higher rate of heart problems in the 40-50 age group of divers
> than
> > >>in
> > >>> the rest of the general population.
> > >>
> > >>Hi Jody,
> > >>
> > >>Rebreather-Divers are a preselected group,
> > >>what makes it quite normal that this
> > >>also means other matches / characteristics in common.
> > >>Those who prefer silence unter water are
> > >>surely often doing that because they are highly stress exposed at work
> > >>and so have a much higher rate of heart problems.
> > >>
> > >>Then you refer to the Colour of housings: simply look at the
> sales-count,
> > >>it is more likely in absolute numbers that a money-spinner
> > >>(Car-Examole: like a VW) in involved in an accident / natural-causes
> death
> > >>than a shelf warmer.
> > >>
> > >>Rgds,
> > >>
> > >>    Karl
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> 
--
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