So let me get this straight-

A company is trying to promote it's product by diving in some caves with 
it. It has been pointed out to the folks involved with this product that 
it is defective and being misapplied.

Now a person has now died using this product in 10ft. of water. 10ft of 
placid, fresh, 200ft vis water. Right off a beach.

And now the folks who pointed out the defects in this product are being 
fingered for the death of the person using this product.

Paolo, Rick, are you both insane? You logic is that due to the 
predictions of a death, a death has now occurred?

Beam me up, Scotty, this planet sucks.

   Jim

Sender: Paolo Velcich  Date: 2/17/99 6:07 AM

>Guys,
>please excuse me if I come in, I'm totally an outsider (I was a 
>speleologist in
>the past and still I'm a scubadiver and a skydiver). I could follow your
>disputes during the past months, since I connected to this NG.
>I - usually - think to sport as sport and science as science and 
>exploration as
>exploration, and I - usually - feel they can and should combine together,
>without conflicts - for major humankind benefits. And I think it's exactly 
>what
>we did for years in the arctic and we're finally going to perform at the 
>South
>Pole at the end of the year.
>
>It sounds really incredible and totally wrong to hear about this bloody fight
>between two groups acting in the same community and for the same purposes.
>
>I don't remember if such a kind of narrowed menthality depends more on the
>cavers or on the divers philosophy, I can only remember how a similar 
>attitude
>(in the ristrected but empowered group of climbers/cavers in our 
>speleological
>society) cancelled with silly motivations all our efforts of setting a
>cooperation with the Yugoslavian Academy of sciences (it was 1986), the
>Postumia's Caves Headquarters and other institutional resources for a mixed
>paleontological/scuba/speleo survey in the Adriatic area. I lost my face
>(together with another friend) in front of the Yugoslavian academists and the
>mankind lost a superbous prehistoric mastodont which was - later - stolen 
>from
>individuals...
>
>I don't want absolutely enter your dispute about which group has the better
>skills, preparation and attitudes, but I can say the dispute itself is
>unnecessary, dangerous and absolutely a silly thing.
>Maybe this Nobel awarded diver didn't die because the "environmental" 
>pressure,
>but you're totally wrong when continue to fight and drop tons of mud over the
>heads of a group already hit from a tragical loss. You put yourself out with
>your own attitude and you demonstrate your poor spirit.
>
>There's a kind of people continuosly searching for progress and technical
>innovation. Other people say proudly "I'm going deep on my one single 
>cylinder,
>air and no BC..." outhers are proud of their macho-like gears and 
>approach.. I
>think all of them are different and complemetary aspects of the same evolving
>community and sport.
>
>Remember, we're not request to fight against each other, we're already
>penetrating an environment which is not so friendly to our primitive phisic,
>we're still adapting our body to this experience and there's a lot to do, 
>please
>stop fighting, start cooperating and have respect of victims. Anyone of us 
>could
>be the next.
>
>Paolo Velcich
>industrial designer
>Udine - Italy
>pavel@ma*.na*.it*
>http://www.polarexpeditions.org
>http://nauta.com
>
>
>Jess Armantrout wrote:
>
>> yes Rick, this death is our fault.  13 years is nowhere near enough time to
>> get that deathtrap working, even for a Noble Prize winner in physics.  And
>> 11 years is not enough time to learn from the mistakes of your first
>> project.  And 5 years is not enough time to plan your second project, even
>> with a year delay in the starting date.  And 3 months is not enough time to
>> get to 8000 feet in perfect conditions
>>
>> Do you realize the WKPP was at Wakulla 8 days in '98?  The 18 grand dive was
>> setup, executed and cleaned up in 36 hours.  If you want to know about time
>> pressure, ask George and Dawn how we have to beg for time to dive, how we
>> have to dive Thursdays and Fridays so as to not disturb the park, how we
>> have to put gear in before dawn and take it out after dark.  Let's talk
>> about how we all have real jobs and pay our own way instaed of going around
>> asking for handouts.  Try coming home from a weekend of diving, cleaning
>> your gear, fixing stuff that broke, mixing gas, filling tanks, repacking
>> gear and driving back to tallahasse the next weekend from up to 15 hours
>> away while putting in a 40 hour work week.  That my friend is time pressure.
>>
>> Now let's talk about us helping stone...where do you see that we could have
>> been of help?  We emphasize teamwork, fitness, safety, redundancy, using
>> methods proven in shallower less complex systems, never training at wakulla,
>> using only seasoned vetrans and ALWAYS HAVING A BUDDY!
>>
>> Chief, you don't have a clue.
>>
>> Trout
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rick Fincher <rnf@sp*.tb*.co*>
>> To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 7:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: Nobel prize winner dies at Wakulla
>>
>> >snip...
>> >
>> >>  he was on a  Cis-Lunar RB, and he is confirmed died. They are claiming
>> that
>> >>  the 0-2 set point was not set properly, and yes, he did die in shallow
>> >>  water. Thats all I know for now.
>> >>
>> >>  Mike Bruic
>> >>   >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I saw this on TV it never mentioned Wak-2 or Cave diving.  Well it has
>> finally
>> >> happened it is too bad that it had to come to this. This whole thing
>> never
>> >> should of happened in the first place. You cannot introduce so much new
>> >> untried technology into an equation and have it work.  This is why the
>> WKPP's
>> >> method of slow and easy...one new technology at a time with failsafe is
>> the
>> >> key to getting the job done and moving forward at the same time.
>> >>
>> >> Ray LaTulippe
>> >
>> >Then why did you put so much time pressure on those other guys? You guys
>> can be
>> >real proud. Instead of trying to help out you fought the other guys every
>> step
>> >of the way and sniped at them every chance you got. Now somebody is dead
>> and you
>> >can't wait to gloat.
>> >
>> >Rick
>> >--
>> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>
>> --
>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>


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