Zero seems to have some valid points, as do you on the subject.  There are
a few approaches to dealing with competitive teams. First is to decide is
there really competition and if so what are you competing about?  Second of
course is the clear understanding that whenever there is competition there
will be defectors, turncoats, spies, and villain. The "Rodney - cant we all
get along approach" rarely works in heated issues. I have followed the
"Wak2" daily reports and found them disappointing to say the least. 

Rod Farb once described working the Monitor in a simple way he said; "There
are divers who can dive the wreck, and divers who can do work, but rarely
do we have divers who can do both at the same time."  Clearly, the WKPP has
developed a team that can not only do the dives but can do the work. USDCT
is still playing around with figuring it all out, but that is nothing new,
this has been their mode of operation for many years.

The primary problem with the Wak2 approach is one of "Tell Em What We Hope
To Do" first but without the appropriate planning and training. If a
commercial diving outfit spent time testing while they were to be working
they would be fired. Much of the tools Wak2 brought on-site was commercial
hardware (except of course those mappers and electric lungs) They also
added in a lot of their "play time" to their info releases. Typically when
any project is having problems information dissemination is shut down --
this was a failure in the project as I see it. No news is usually better
than silly news. 

If Wak2 had any level of management they probably would have tucked their
tail between their legs, made the call and asked for help to bail out their
wasted time, and they would have been applauded for that. Asking for help
is a responsible, adult thing to do. But that was not likely to happen.

All that can be expected is for Wak2 to remove their hardware, lay down
some new sod, go home and be thankful all their people are still alive.
Then sit back and take a hard look at what went wrong from beginning to
end, maybe even look at some better management for the next op they attempt
to do or chose to stay clear of the seriously challenging projects and be
happy with ones they can complete. 

As much as we may all hate to admit it, they keep coming back time and time
again. But then so did PT Barum. 

Safety is a Non-Competitive Issue. 







At 12:18 PM 1/6/1999 -0500, H2Ocaver wrote:
>        Dude, you are way off base.
>
>
>>
>>You make some valid points, but a few corrections and additions are
>necessary.
>>First, let me state at the beginning, that the WKPP team has an excellent
>>record, and does some hairy diving.
>
>> This post is NOT about how good or bad
>>either team is.
>
>        This post might not be, but the real problem is just this.
>
>
>>The teams will succeed or fail on their own merits.
>
>
>
>        Here is the major problem that you fail to address-FAILURE means
>death and site closure
>
>
>>
>>This post is about cooperation and living in harmony. The two teams have
>very
>>different philosophies and methods.
>
>        The difference is safety and accurate representation-both of which
>could have life and death consequences
>
>> but both can coexist
>
>    Not if there is inaccurate representation of unsafe activities
>
>
>
>>In sales, you never
>>put down the competitions product. You politely acknowledge their existence
>>while you explain why your product is so good. By putting down the other
>team
>>you make your self look small, and mean.
>
>
>
>    First-this ain't sales.
>    Second- if my competitions  product is over priced, underthought,
>dangerous, and based on hype and bullshit,I am gonna point out every flaw.
>Do you want to call that "talking bad"?
>
>
>>There is no reason or profit in bad mouthing the US cave team either in
>>person, in the press, or here in cyberspace.
>
>        I think the fact that there is a huge following of this kind of
>diving that want to emulate what they see glorified by the PR and BS is
>REASON enough to make absolutely sure the bullshitters are uncovered and the
>truth is kept in plain sight.
>
>
>
>>It just makes you look like a
>>tyrant. This is something that the WKPP and George in particular has been
>>guilty of for a long time
>
>    Who cares? You? ..... the  fact is that there is a very complicated
>group dynamic going on and you are part of the outside looking in (on
>several levels) But, again, what do you care? Can't you get the info you
>want or are you being kept from diving due to the exchanges and attitudes?
>
>
>>He, and the team,  would be much better served if
>>he just held his tongue and let them fail on their own
>
>    You should qualify this statement-it is your opinion. When you put
>together the largest group of divers to do any organized exploration in UW
>caves then you can make a generalization like this.
>
>
>
>> while offering as much
>>support (maps, info, Etc) as is reasonably possible WITHOUT endangering his
>>own teams safety.
>
>        This has been SOP, I should know, I have received more info than I
>could possibly have paid for. And I went kicking and screaming into every
>evolution of gear and technique. I have a photo album you should see.
>AND, Hemphill and I showed up at Barry's house one day and he laid out the
>map and showed us some of the video that was left on the floor when the
>videos were finished. George would answer or point you in the right
>direction to answer any question you have. Jarrod was my instructor and he
>is as level headed as anyone who could possibly do the job he does.
>Straatsma lives around the corner from me and is the nicest guy you would
>ever meet-and he has been cave diving since before I was born.  Carmicheal
>runs a no bullshit company that has made it almost too easy to do it right.
>I have urged my friends to go up and do support-when they return they have
>learned how things like this are done properly. Look at the videos, look at
>the lists-what more could you need from them?
>
>
>>Viewed from the outside, it would appear that George's EGO (among others)
>is
>>the  one driving this argument. It would appear that all the positive
>>publicity that they are getting, is bothering the members of WKPP. the
>members
>>of the WKPP do what they do at great personal cost, because they chose to,
>not
>>because of a pay check, or news print. They should not let their image or
>>integrity be marred by jealousy.
>>
>    This is the problem-"viewed from the out side"- It's hard to get the
>correct story out when Sigfried and Roy keep fooling the audience with
>inaccurate and dangerous flashes of grandeur. Some body out there will
>eventually follow the lead of the usdct and stick their head into the
>beast's mouth only to feel the tight clamp of reality.
>
>
>>As a historical point. Cave diving had a bad reputation in the late 60s and
>>early 70s some where during that time a cave diving organization. That
>>revolutionized cave diving and made it much safer. Cave diving has enjoyed
>a
>>good reputation since then.
>
>
>        Who do think was responsible for the bad reputation of the past-AND-
>who has made it safe enough to enjoy the current reputation of hazardous yet
>readily achievable.
>
>
>
>>
>>Lets bury the hatchet and let the teams success of failure determine their
>>standing. Not petty bickering.
>>
>
>    What are you going to call failure? Deaths? Lies? Misrepresentation?-EZ
>
>
>>
>>Joseph Terzuoli
>>Captain Zero
>>Member ELBA
>
>
Joel Silverstein
Scuba Training + Technology Co.
http://www.nitroxdiver.com
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