Ok, let me get this straight.  I should buy a Haskel ($4000), then a 2
stage lp compressor in the 30 cfm range ($2500) to get the last 200 psi of
gas out of a bottle or to get more than 2600 of a gas into a scuba tank. 
Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world.

Dell, I doubt there are many individuals that go thru more gas in a year
than I do.  The only others would be the guys I dive with, and none of us
use Haskels.  Of course, none of us makes a commision selling them either.

What am I missing here?

Trout

----------
> From: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>
> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Case E. Harris
<diveman@cy*.co*>; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 7:13 AM
> 
> With all due respect, bullshit back to ya. You coined it yourself, "if
you
> don't use it wisely".
> We drive our haskel with a two stage, high volume, low pressure
compressor,
> thus not burning up valuable, filtered drive air. I think you should have
> spent some of that money you claimed to have spent on gear on setting up
an
> air station correctly.
> We also run a small heater on it in the winter, to totally prevent freeze
> up.
> DIR applies to more than just your gear configuration.
> Your welcome.
> Dell Motes
> Dive Rite
> 117 W.Washington St.
> Lake City, Fla. 32055
> www.Dive-Rite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
> To: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>; Case E. Harris
<diveman@cy*.co*>;
> techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 2:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
> 
> 
> >With all due respect, bullshit.
> >
> >Haskels are neat, but Haskels will eat your shorts finacially if you
don't
> >use them wisely.  Once the delta between source gas (the big o2 bottle,
for
> >example) and the destination bottle (your scuba tank) becomes greater
than
> >about a grand, you are spending too much money on drive gas (low
pressure,
> >but high volume gas, usually air, drives a Haskel).  Also, they become
less
> >efficient as the source bottle (the big o2 bottle) pressure drops, so if
> >you are using them to get the last dregs from a bottle before you take
it
> >back, you are going to get clobbered paying for the drive gas.
> >
> >In summary,  they are ideal for going from say, 2640 to 3000, but they
suck
> >going from say 1000 to 3000 or 200 to 1000.
> >
> >Trout
> >Former owner and operator of a Dive Rite sold Haskel boast pump, thank
you
> >very much.
> >
> >----------
> >> From: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>
> >> To: Case E. Harris <diveman@cy*.co*>; Jesse Armantrout
> ><armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> >> Subject: Re: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
> >> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 12:07 PM
> >>
> >> I think Joel is just pointing out what an invaluable tool a haskel can
> >be.
> >> If you've ever used one that is set up with a gas manifold for mixing,
> >> you'll kick yourself in the butt for not buying one sooner. We seldom
> >boost
> >> O2 higher than about 2600 and occasionally I'll boost to 3000, BUT
that
> >is
> >> with keeping things nice and cool. 3000 seems to be the unwritten
> >> threshhold, and it just doesn't seem necessary most of the time.We
have a
> >> high performance filter in line that we cool with water, and just use
> >common
> >> sense. We bank 32% and air, and then with the haskel you can mix up
> >whatever
> >> you're heart desires with NO HASSLE, just switch the supply gas and
purge
> >> the line. I've pumped out enough doubles of tri-mix and 2 deco gas
mixes
> >for
> >> up to 16 people in less than a few hours with zero mistakes and no
wasted
> >> gas. I wouldn't trade the Haskel for anything, it makes it incredibly
> >fast
> >> and pays for itself quickly (especially if you use it on a daily
basis)
> >in
> >> gas savings alone.
> >> Regards,
> >> Dell Motes
> >> Dive Rite
> >> 117 W.Washington St.
> >> Lake City, Fla. 32055
> >> www.Dive-Rite.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Case E. Harris <diveman@cy*.co*>
> >> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>;
> >techdiver@aquanaut.com
> >> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 1:19 AM
> >> Subject: Question on O2 (was RE: 80% AARGH!)
> >>
> >>
> >> >Divers-
> >> >This raises an interesting question in my mind, and perhaps the list
as
> >> >a whole can shed some light for me... I've been around people who do
> >> >Haskell Oxygen...AL bottles full to 3000psi, and I've had a rather
well
> >> >thought of blender/tech tell me he's afraid of O2 higher than about
2400
> >> >psi.
> >> >
> >> >I would like to hear the opinions of anyone out as to the safety of
> >> >boosting O2. Does everyone just fill to 2250?  I understand why one
> >> >wouldn't fill to 3000 w/o a booster, but is it really that dangerous
to
> >> >fill higher?
> >> >
> >> >Joel? NAUI doesn't say much on this...what's your opinion?
> >> >Tom? IANTD's view?
> >> >George? What is the WKPP standard for high pressure O2?
> >> >Anyone else? what's the standard in other parts of the world?
> >> >
> >> >Thanks...
> >> >-Case
> >> >
> >> >Jesse Armantrout wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> maybe this one is common sense, but I've not seen it posted
before...
> >> >>
> >> >> Another reason for liking 100% is that when I turn a bottle on and
see
> >> 3000
> >> >> psi, I know that isn't oxygen. (I don't Haskel o2)  This gives me a
> >warn
> >> >> fuzzy feeling.
> >> >>
> >> >> Trout
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------
> >> >> > From: Nanci LeVake <nlevake@pi*.co*>
> >> >> > To: Joel Silverstein <joelsilverstein@wo*.at*.ne*>;
> >> >> gwaw@ix*.ne*.co*
> >> >> > Cc: Techdiver@aquanaut.com
> >> >> > Subject: Re: 80% arrrgh!! was Re: On the left
> >> >> > Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 2:36 PM
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Arnie,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Something Joel forgot to mention is that if you need O2 for a
> >medical
> >> >> > emergency, and you are using 100% O2 for deco, you already have
the
> >> right
> >> >> > gas there with you.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Nanci
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > At 10:14 AM 11/23/98 -0500, Joel Silverstein wrote:
> >> >> > >Dear Arnie,
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >It is quite easy to pump 100% oxygen to 3000 psi -- the dive
shop
> >> needs
> >> >> to
> >> >> > >make the investment in a proper oxygen service rated Haskel Gas
> >> booster.
> >> >> > >Most any reputable dive center who is mixing gas for the
consumer
> >> should
> >> >> > >have one, anyone that does not should step up pet the pony and
buy
> >> one.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >80% EAN was not created from a decompression standpoint it was
> >> justified
> >> >> by
> >> >> > >those who did not have a gas booster. Here's why. Oxygen gets
> >> delivered
> >> >> in
> >> >> > >2400 psi bottles, (some major cities have gas suppliers who can
> >supply
> >> >> at
> >> >> > >3500 psi) however you can cascade into a 3000 psi rated cylinder
> >about
> >> >> 2250
> >> >> > >psi of oxygen top up to 3k with air and you have 80% oxygen
> >content.
> >> >> Simple
> >> >> > >enough.  However .......
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >80% EAN limits you severely. 1. at 20 and 10 fsw its PPO2  is
too
> >low
> >> >> make
> >> >> > >it useful, at 40 fsw its too high for maximum exposure limits.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >10 fsw 1.04 po2  too low
> >> >> > >20 fsw 1.28 po2  too low
> >> >> > >30 fsw 1.53 po2  borderline
> >> >> > >40 fsw 1.77 po2  too high
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Where as 100% oxygen is
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >10 fsw 1.30 po2
> >> >> > >20 fsw 1.61 po2
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >(with the 10 fsw stop normally being taken at 20 fsw
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Advocates of the EAN80 (a/k/a stroke mix) have come up with a
> >variety
> >> of
> >> >> > >reasons to justify not using 100% oxygen --- one of the great
ones
> >is
> >> >> "its
> >> >> > >good for divers who have trouble holding buoyancy at 10 and 20
fsw"
> >> >> > >frankly if a technical diver cant hold a 20 fsw stop --- they
> >should
> >> go
> >> >> > >bowling and get the hell out of the water.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Most divers who are using accelerated decompression tables have
> >> >> > >standardized on their decompression mixes.  (some are finding
that
> >> >> > >hyperoxginated heliox mixes are working well too though that is
> >beyond
> >> >> the
> >> >> > >scope of this email)
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >EAN 36 from 110 fsw
> >> >> > >EAN 50 from 70 fsw
> >> >> > >100% oxygen from 20 fsw
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Granted when you run one of the consumer dive profiling
softwares
> >you
> >> >> may
> >> >> > >see only a small decrease in decompression time -- maybe 5
minutes
> >by
> >> >> using
> >> >> > >100% over EAN80. and though you may belive that is not a
> >significant
> >> >> enough
> >> >> > >advantage to make sure you have 100% oxygen here are a few more
> >> >> > >non-scientific reasons.  From a mixing standpoint unless you are
> >using
> >> >> > >exceptionally clean hyper filtrated air or air produced from an
oil
> >> free
> >> >> > >compressor there is risk of explosion when mixing high pressure
air
> >on
> >> >> top
> >> >> > >of 100% oxygen. It probably has not happened yet --- but some
day
> >some
> >> >> > >goober will blow up a building doing it. Even if you are using a
30
> >> >> cuber
> >> >> > >(small) just cascading 2400 psi oxygen in it will give you 24
cuft
> >of
> >> >> > >oxygen -- for deco thats easily 40 minutes worth, which is a lot
of
> >> gas.
> >> >> No
> >> >> > >need to goober around making EAN80 for the other 6 cuft, its
just
> >too
> >> >> much
> >> >> > >work for it and I am sure it costs a bit more, besides if you
are
> >> doing
> >> >> a
> >> >> > >dive that requires much more than 40 minutes of oxygen
> >decompression
> >> you
> >> >> > >would want a bigger tank. The fact that a tank has a pressure
> >rating
> >> of
> >> >> > >3000 does not mean you have to fill it to that level. I have an
> >> >> excellent
> >> >> > >tank chart for all currently available tanks in the US on our
web
> >> site -
> >> >> go
> >> >> > >look at it. Next; most consumer available oxygen analyzers using
> >> >> > >electrochemical sensors can be off by as much as 2% in their
> >readings,
> >> >> so
> >> >> > >is your 80% really 80 or is it 78? Whereas pure oxygen is
upwards
> >of
> >> 99%
> >> >> > >pure -- it's a known item.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Arnie, as a techie in training you have an opportunity right in
> >front
> >> of
> >> >> > >you. It's two roads ... the left road is filled with
exploration,
> >> >> > >friendships, technology and long proven safety procedures. The
> >right
> >> >> road
> >> >> > >is bumpy, full of mis answered questions, body bags, and
strokified
> >> >> > >convolution. I get the feeling your want to take the high road
and
> >do
> >> it
> >> >> > >right. In Judaic studies we are taught to ask why not to follow
> >> blindly.
> >> >> > >So in this very long winding response (If I had more time it
would
> >> have
> >> >> > >been shorter) the answer is .... EAN80 buys you 6 cuft more gas,
> >but
> >> >> buys
> >> >> > >you nothing else. Take no shortcuts when it comes to technical
> >diving.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Good Luck
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >At 10:21 PM 11/22/1998 -0800, you wrote:
> >> >> > >>Joel,
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>Another question for you.  It is prompted by your post on the
> >bottle
> >> >> > >>marking issue.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>What is the advantage of 100% O2 compared to 80% O2.  I've been
> >using
> >> >> > >>the latter for deco.  For one, it is somewhat easier to get at
> >local
> >> >> > >>dive shops because it is harder to pump the 100% to 3,000 psi,
but
> >> that
> >> >> > >>is merely convenience.  More importantly, I can get on the 80%
at
> >> 30ft
> >> >> > >>and have the advantage of breathing a higher gradient gas mix
> >sooner
> >> >> > >>than waiting to the 20ft stop.  The published tables I've seen
> >give
> >> no
> >> >> > >>time advantage to doing deco on 100% over 80%.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>What is your view and why?  TIA.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>Blow gentle bubbles,
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>Arnie
> >> >> > >>Tech Diver in Training
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >Joel Silverstein
> >> >> > >Scuba Training + Travel Co.
> >> >> > >http://www.NitroxDiver.com
> >> >> > >--
> >> >> > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> >> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >> >> > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >> >> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >> >> --
> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >
> >> >                 \  \
> >> >^_              \  \                 Case E. Harris
> >> >  \ \             {   \         US Deep Wreck Diving Team
> >> >  {  \           /     `~~~--__   diveman@cy*.co*
> >> >  {   \___----~~'              `~~-_
> >> >   \                         /// `  `~.           ___  Oo
> >> >   / /~~~~-, ,__.    ,      ///  __,,,,)         (___)o_o
> >> >   \/      \/    `~~~;   ,---~~-_`~=        //====--//(_)
> >> >                    /   /                           \\ ^
> >> >                   '._.'   Deep...Professional...The Standard!
> >> >--
> >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >> >
> >
> 
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