Jeff,

It takes less time to do the procedures Tom describes than it does to look
at a pressure gauge, or switch an OC mouthpiece.  Come on, get real for a
moment.  Suppose I posed Bill's same scenario for OC divers.  The second
diver suddenly has a primary OC reg failure, and switches to the backup.
This is a MUCH higher task-load manuver than the solution to the
hypothetical 'breather problem (as Tom clearly pointed out).  Now the
question for the OC divers becomes:  "How do you behave as a good buddy if
you are busy 'dicking' around with your backup OC regulator and the like?"
At least give us something challenging.

Aloha,
Rich

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Bentley [mailto:jeffbentley@mi*.co*]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 7:52 AM
> To: Tom Mount
> Cc: Bill Mee; Rebreather mail list; cavers@ca*.co*; "Jess
> Armantrout"; techdiver; "Dan Volker"; LT Dituri; "Richard Pyle";
> kirvine@sa*.ne*
> Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT
>
>
> Tom,
>
> How do you behave as a good buddy if you are busy "dicking" around
> with your rebreather O2%s and the like?
>
> I tend to spend more time watching my buddy than my guages.
>
> Do you find that some breathers require less constant watching than
> others and would be more appropriate for safe cave diving?
>
> Your agency claims to instruct on all rebreathers so
> I suspect that you would know which tools work best in different
> applications and could pass that information on to novices like me
> on the list.
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff
>
> Tom Mount wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bill
> >
> > This is the emergency you presented: following it would be my
> reaction to
> > this not really serious event.
> >
> >  (per Bill)
> > Let’s pose the following scenario:  You are on your CIS 4000ft back in A
> > >tunnel in a section with 4ft viz.  You are following your
> buddy on the line
> > >while trying to maintain control of your scooter without
> inhaling the line
> > >or other adjacent lines. Suddenly you notice the o2 warning light start
> > >flashing in the heads up display and at the same time you
> notice that the
> > >oxygen solenoid is not longer firing.
> >
> > Bill,  First before I flashed my buddy, I would manually inject
> oxygen as
> > what you described is a low oxygen situation. I would switch
> the unit into
> > manual operation and continue the dive , in this case I would not even
> > bother to do OC ,as at the time the HUD gives me  awarning it
> simply tells
> > me I', 0.02 below my normal setpoint and in no danger of hypoxia,  If I
> > checked the ROD and found I was nearing a hypoxic situation I
> would then go
> > OC for a couple of breaths while I injected oxygen back to the normal
> > setpoint ( by the way I would have adequate OC bailout if I did
> this dive,
> > just would not have needed it in this case).
> >
> > You flash your buddy ahead of you but
> > >he can’t see your light flash because of the bad visibility.
> You pause to
> > >switch over to open circuit. This is now a serious emergency
> and you need
> > to
> > >get on to the backup system asap. Now, your buddy is gone and
> will not know
> > >that you are in trouble until he gets to clear water which may
> not be for
> > >another 1000 ft.
> >
> > Bill, this situtation is so easy to solve that there would be
> no reason to
> > shutdown the DPV as it is solves on the fly
> >
> > Your buddy is towing the backup rebreather on the backup
> > >scooter and your open circuit will only last 3 – 5 minutes at best at
> > 280ft.
> >
> > Bill; Even if we were seperated I do not need the backup rebreather
> > Bill when you present a scenario like this it clearly reflects
> that you do
> > not have a working knowledge of the MK 5. It will talke much
> more than this
> > to demand a permanent if any switch to OC. A lot of options are
> available to
> > remain on CCR and then you can bailout to SCR. The OC would
> only need to be
> > used during a transistion from one mode to the other as a
> precaution and to
> > be sure you had the system stable.
> >
> > I agree with you and I think most of the participants on the W2
> project do
> > that adequate OC bailout should be available. But you need to understand
> > there are numerous ways to survive on the MK 5 prior to OC
> bailout and that
> > the OC bailout is easy to access and allows time for thinking.
> I have not
> > todate encountered a situtation that required me to stay in OC
> bailout mode
> > including total loss of sensors, because I got in a hurry and
> failed to lock
> > them into the sensor housing during one of my early dives on the unit.
> >
> > >You think about how foolish you were to have believed in Bill
> Stone and how
> > >nice your life was.  These are your last thoughts.
> > >
> >
> > But they would not be anyones last thoughts who has been
> trained on the MK
> > 5, because it was not a serious problem
> >
> > Next scenario please
> >
> > Respectfully yours,
> > Tom Mount
> > CEO IANTD World HQ
> > http://www.iantd.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>
> > To: Rebreather mail list <rebreather@nw*.co*>
> > Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Tom Mount"
> > <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; "Jess Armantrout"
> > <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan
> > Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle"
> > <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>; kirvine@sa*.ne*
> <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
> > Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 11:03 PM
> > Subject: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >I have received private emails conveying a sense of frustration and
> > futility
> > >about the WKPP. Many individuals feel that they will never have an
> > >opportunity to dive in such places as Wakulla Springs and
> other sites under
> > >the WKPP’s aegis, because they are viewed as “bad guys” or
> feel they are
> > >“hated” either by the director or other members.  It is this abject
> > hopeless
> > >frustration which has motivated many people to sign on with
> the USDCT or
> > >forever remain as vocal detractors lurking on the periphery of our
> > >organization..
> > >
> > >Aside from a tiny handful of people, whose attitude and
> retrograde mindset
> > >permanently prevents them from changing their ways, no one is
> excluded from
> > >participation in the activities of the WKPP.  It is well
> understood, though
> > >perhaps not at first glance, that certain activities are
> inappropriate for
> > >some members. The WKPP got it’s start and made its initial
> mark in the deep
> > >exploration of Leon Sinks and there is a potent understanding of the
> > extreme
> > >dangers and challenges of this form of diving. There is
> obviously a lot to
> > >be learned about mixed gas exploration diving.  Especially
> prior to taking
> > >on major life or death challenge. The WKPP’s program of
> gradually exposing
> > >members to all aspects of specialized diving, from surface
> management, gas
> > >mixing and deployment, dive setup, dive support, scooter
> diving, gas diving
> > >and exploration diving is a time and result proven enterprise.
>  We have a
> > >good track record and intend to keep it that way.
> > >
> > >It is exceptionally common in this sport to encounter those
> who are “trying
> > >to prove something” either to themselves or their peer group.
> The “trying
> > to
> > >prove something” problem is at the core of much of the human carnage in
> > >technical diving, if you haven’t already noticed. Within the WKPP
> > >organization there are many checks and balances and hurdles in place to
> > >prevent people from hastening their demise.  Anybody who is
> serious about
> > >pursuing mixed gas exploration cave diving should want to embrace this
> > >ideology and not perceive it as a type of punishment for political
> > >divergence.
> > >
> > >In short, anybody who really wants to dive and is committed to
> doing what
> > it
> > >takes will get a shot with the one caveat  “Eventually”.
> > >
> > >Jess Armantrout has articulately described the arduous path to
> diving in
> > >extreme situations, such as Wakulla Springs.  In keeping with
> the core WKPP
> > >philosophy of the “team is my life support” Jess has disclosed the most
> > >basic of all requirements. That is the requisite of having two other
> > members
> > >who will dive with you as a team before you go anywhere, after
> all of the
> > >other hurdles have been attained.  The USDCT should think long and hard
> > >about this.
> > >
> > >Our problem with the USDCT is not with the rank and file of people with
> > >legitimate aspirations and a desire to share in the
> opportunity to explore
> > >spectacular natural wonders.  It is with the mistaken believe
> that there is
> > >a magic shortcut to this activity. We perceive this situation
> not unlike
> > the
> > >perpetration of a fraud on the innocent and ignorant. Bill Stone, as
> > project
> > >leader presides over this situation and will be the one to accept
> > >responsibility when someone is killed or injured.  You would
> think that the
> > >experience of  carrying a dead friend out Huatla would have
> tempered his
> > >enthusiasm for frivolous risk and made him much more careful
> in is planning
> > >and preparation.
> > >
> > >When we listen to his ignorant and nonsensical remarks, which
> find their
> > way
> > >into the public domain (he will not debate us publicly) we are
> shocked at
> > >the blatant stupidity of certain of these hare brained
> schemes. Using the
> > >Cis Lunar Mk 5 without adequate open circuit bailout is a fine
> example of
> > >this dyslexic reasoning. While we have made our opinion well known
> > regarding
> > >the use of electronic CCRs in an overhead environment (very risky, but
> > >sometimes all 18 wheels will miss the smiling possum) we
> certainly would
> > >give Stone and King their due with a green light. That is if
> they  take the
> > >minimum precautions of a basic open circuit escape mechanism,
> at least for
> > >the others in the project, if not themselves.
> > >
> > >
> > >When you consider the above and you weigh the measured careful
> approach of
> > >the WKPP I hope you can understand why we do the things we do
> and take the
> > >inflexible attitude that we do. The issue here is not hatred
> of others, but
> > >an overriding concern for the safety and well being of  other humans in
> > what
> > >otherwise is a very serious and dangerous enterprise.  Please
> view it in
> > >that regard and do not take umbrage of offense.
> > >
> > >Best wishes,
> > >
> > >Bill Mee
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> --
> Jeff Bentley   jeffbentley@mi*.co*
> http://www.mindspring.com/~jeffbentley
>

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