Man, I gotta get some stuff done, so I swear this is my last post for a
while...

The point that is being overlooked here is why use a machine where you
might have to manually inject the oxygen.

We have determined that due to pulminary oxtox considerations, CCR will
provide minimal deco advantage at wakulla.  We are hearing from Tom that
they will most likely have full blown OC bailout, so the bulk issue is
gone.  We all agree that the Cis is more complex than the Halcyon.  Why is
it, again, that the usdct is using CC technology at all?

Step back from the hype and politics for just a moment and tell me again
why this is the best solution.  Your arguments are not holding water, so to
speak.

Trout...over and out

----------
From: Jim Brown <jdb1740@ea*.ne*>
To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>;
Rebreather mail list <rebreather@nw*.co*>
Cc: cavers@ca*.co*; "Jess Armantrout" <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>;
techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri
<dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle" <deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>;
kirvine@sa*.ne*
Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT
Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 1:19 AM

Hi Tom,

This does indicate how little Bill knows about CCMG.

Not only on the MK 5, but on any reasonable closed loop (volume-wise) at
300
or so FFW, at near resting (scootering) VO2, it would take 10 minutes or
more to reduce the loop PO2 from the alarm point (given a realistic
setpoint) to a hypoxic level. Also at that depth, a short manual shot of O2
(3 or 4 seconds?) would be very effective (depending of course on the
manual
injection flow rate). What's so distracting about a three second manual
button press? Are you guys that task loaded during cave dives?

Unless of course the diver had some unrational fear and loathed to
understand the technology and had to bring the point up theoretically. Then
anything could happen. Mighty Mouse could even come rescue the diver from
the jaws of the cave godzilla standing between the diver and his (her)
buddy
:.)

Happy Diving from Jim Brown in Colorado Springs, CO


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
To: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; Rebreather mail list
<rebreather@nw*.co*>
Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Jess Armantrout"
<armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan
Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle"
<deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>; kirvine@sa*.ne* <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT


>Hi Bill
>
>
>This is the emergency you presented: following it would be my reaction to
>this not really serious event.
>
> (per Bill)
>Let’s pose the following scenario:  You are on your CIS 4000ft back in A
>>tunnel in a section with 4ft viz.  You are following your buddy on the
line
>>while trying to maintain control of your scooter without inhaling the
line
>>or other adjacent lines. Suddenly you notice the o2 warning light start
>>flashing in the heads up display and at the same time you notice that the
>>oxygen solenoid is not longer firing.
>
>Bill,  First before I flashed my buddy, I would manually inject oxygen as
>what you described is a low oxygen situation. I would switch the unit into
>manual operation and continue the dive , in this case I would not even
>bother to do OC ,as at the time the HUD gives me  awarning it simply tells
>me I', 0.02 below my normal setpoint and in no danger of hypoxia,  If I
>checked the ROD and found I was nearing a hypoxic situation I would then
go
>OC for a couple of breaths while I injected oxygen back to the normal
>setpoint ( by the way I would have adequate OC bailout if I did this dive,
>just would not have needed it in this case).
>
>You flash your buddy ahead of you but
>>he can’t see your light flash because of the bad visibility.  You pause
to
>>switch over to open circuit. This is now a serious emergency and you need
>to
>>get on to the backup system asap. Now, your buddy is gone and will not
know
>>that you are in trouble until he gets to clear water which may not be for
>>another 1000 ft.
>
>Bill, this situtation is so easy to solve that there would be no reason to
>shutdown the DPV as it is solves on the fly
>
>Your buddy is towing the backup rebreather on the backup
>>scooter and your open circuit will only last 3 – 5 minutes at best at
>280ft.
>
>Bill; Even if we were seperated I do not need the backup rebreather
>Bill when you present a scenario like this it clearly reflects that you do
>not have a working knowledge of the MK 5. It will talke much more than
this
>to demand a permanent if any switch to OC. A lot of options are available
to
>remain on CCR and then you can bailout to SCR. The OC would only need to
be
>used during a transistion from one mode to the other as a precaution and
to
>be sure you had the system stable.
>
>I agree with you and I think most of the participants on the W2 project do
>that adequate OC bailout should be available. But you need to understand
>there are numerous ways to survive on the MK 5 prior to OC bailout and
that
>the OC bailout is easy to access and allows time for thinking. I have not
>todate encountered a situtation that required me to stay in OC bailout
mode
>including total loss of sensors, because I got in a hurry and failed to
lock
>them into the sensor housing during one of my early dives on the unit.
>
>
>
>>You think about how foolish you were to have believed in Bill Stone and
how
>>nice your life was.  These are your last thoughts.
>>
>
>But they would not be anyones last thoughts who has been trained on the MK
>5, because it was not a serious problem
>
>Next scenario please
>
>Respectfully yours,
>Tom Mount
>CEO IANTD World HQ
>http://www.iantd.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>
>To: Rebreather mail list <rebreather@nw*.co*>
>Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Tom Mount"
><TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; "Jess Armantrout"
><armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Dan
>Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*>; LT Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; "Richard Pyle"
><deepreef@bi*.bi*.or*>; kirvine@sa*.ne*
<kirvine@sa*.ne*>
>Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 11:03 PM
>Subject: WKKP: Love, Hate, CCRs and the USDCT
>
>
>>
>>
>>I have received private emails conveying a sense of frustration and
>futility
>>about the WKPP. Many individuals feel that they will never have an
>>opportunity to dive in such places as Wakulla Springs and other sites
under
>>the WKPP’s aegis, because they are viewed as “bad guys” or feel they are
>>“hated” either by the director or other members.  It is this abject
>hopeless
>>frustration which has motivated many people to sign on with the USDCT or
>>forever remain as vocal detractors lurking on the periphery of our
>>organization..
>>
>>Aside from a tiny handful of people, whose attitude and retrograde
mindset
>>permanently prevents them from changing their ways, no one is excluded
from
>>participation in the activities of the WKPP.  It is well understood,
though
>>perhaps not at first glance, that certain activities are inappropriate
for
>>some members. The WKPP got it’s start and made its initial mark in the
deep
>>exploration of Leon Sinks and there is a potent understanding of the
>extreme
>>dangers and challenges of this form of diving. There is obviously a lot
to
>>be learned about mixed gas exploration diving.  Especially prior to
taking
>>on major life or death challenge. The WKPP’s program of gradually
exposing
>>members to all aspects of specialized diving, from surface management,
gas
>>mixing and deployment, dive setup, dive support, scooter diving, gas
diving
>>and exploration diving is a time and result proven enterprise.  We have a
>>good track record and intend to keep it that way.
>>
>>It is exceptionally common in this sport to encounter those who are
“trying
>>to prove something” either to themselves or their peer group. The “trying
>to
>>prove something” problem is at the core of much of the human carnage in
>>technical diving, if you haven’t already noticed. Within the WKPP
>>organization there are many checks and balances and hurdles in place to
>>prevent people from hastening their demise.  Anybody who is serious about
>>pursuing mixed gas exploration cave diving should want to embrace this
>>ideology and not perceive it as a type of punishment for political
>>divergence.
>>
>>In short, anybody who really wants to dive and is committed to doing what
>it
>>takes will get a shot with the one caveat  “Eventually”.
>>
>>Jess Armantrout has articulately described the arduous path to diving in
>>extreme situations, such as Wakulla Springs.  In keeping with the core
WKPP
>>philosophy of the “team is my life support” Jess has disclosed the most
>>basic of all requirements. That is the requisite of having two other
>members
>>who will dive with you as a team before you go anywhere, after all of the
>>other hurdles have been attained.  The USDCT should think long and hard
>>about this.
>>
>>Our problem with the USDCT is not with the rank and file of people with
>>legitimate aspirations and a desire to share in the opportunity to
explore
>>spectacular natural wonders.  It is with the mistaken believe that there
is
>>a magic shortcut to this activity. We perceive this situation not unlike
>the
>>perpetration of a fraud on the innocent and ignorant. Bill Stone, as
>project
>>leader presides over this situation and will be the one to accept
>>responsibility when someone is killed or injured.  You would think that
the
>>experience of  carrying a dead friend out Huatla would have tempered his
>>enthusiasm for frivolous risk and made him much more careful in is
planning
>>and preparation.
>>
>>When we listen to his ignorant and nonsensical remarks, which find their
>way
>>into the public domain (he will not debate us publicly) we are shocked at
>>the blatant stupidity of certain of these hare brained schemes. Using the
>>Cis Lunar Mk 5 without adequate open circuit bailout is a fine example of
>>this dyslexic reasoning. While we have made our opinion well known
>regarding
>>the use of electronic CCRs in an overhead environment (very risky, but
>>sometimes all 18 wheels will miss the smiling possum) we certainly would
>>give Stone and King their due with a green light. That is if they  take
the
>>minimum precautions of a basic open circuit escape mechanism, at least
for
>>the others in the project, if not themselves.
>>
>>
>>When you consider the above and you weigh the measured careful approach
of
>>the WKPP I hope you can understand why we do the things we do and take
the
>>inflexible attitude that we do. The issue here is not hatred of others,
but
>>an overriding concern for the safety and well being of  other humans in
>what
>>otherwise is a very serious and dangerous enterprise.  Please view it in
>>that regard and do not take umbrage of offense.
>>
>>Best wishes,
>>
>>Bill Mee
>>
>>
>>
>
>
----------

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