> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brown, Christopher [mailto:techvid@ne*.co*]
> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 1998 12:33 PM

> Dan -- let's draw a picture, using elements supplied from the posts
> concerning it -- not my info but info supplied by those who were there and
> directly involved -- of a tragic event. Then you and everyone else reading
> this can form their own conclusions about it. If anything is innacurate,
> you point it out and show us why it's wrong:
>
> You've often stated your opinion that tri-atheletes are superior to other
> people in general.



Chris, you ignorant farm animal…..,
I never said triathletes are "superior"  to everyone else----I have
repeatedly said cyclists, triathletes and others who keep themselves in
elite physical condition,  would have a large advantage over the huge fat
slobs in tech diving , should they pursue it.


>
> You've often stated your opinion that *only* elite level athletes, such as
> tri-atheletes, are qualified to be technical divers: the only ones who
> *can* or *should* be attempting technical diving.


In the case of Jane Orenstein,  no amount of athletic condition could
protect her from what I see as criminally negligent  homicide---and which is
what I think Derrick deserves to have been charged with.
I NEVER said ONLY triathletes are qualified to be tech divers.  George is
the best tech diver I know, and he is a swimmer.  I don't even do triathlon
myself-I am a cyclist.

I HAVE said all tech divers should train their cardiovascular system with an
aerobic sport. I still believe this. The differences in WKPP team decos
after huge exposures, versus the huge farm animal decos Stone, Brown et al
will be force to do after baby exposures, should underline this whole
concept.
Chris, if you are too stupid to quote properly,  just how can you write for
anything other than the National Enquirer? Or have you decided that
journalism is not for you---just quick copying video tapes???


>
> Jane was a tri-athelete -- a member of *your* S. FL athletic/diving
> community. It appears from your posts that she and Alan knew you before
> this accident. We may be able to assume she also knew, or knew
> of/heard all
> about WKPP's diving, people/accomplishments from you, george,
> mee, etc.(She
> intended to take "deep cave" from JJ.) We are certain that george knew her
> instr. and her instr's wife (his employee), etc. So either from
> you/friends
> or her instr., there was a feedback loop about extreme diving and elite
> level athletes.
>
> Jane was a recreational diver and divemaster. We can probably
> safely assume
> she was experienced/comfortable making *single alum. tank*, single mix
> (air) rec dives, in a wet suit, down to and no deeper than 130, since she
> was not yet a tech diver.
>
> >From *george's* original post about this accident, we are told she was
> taking her tri-mix course *in preparation* for a "deep caving course from
> JJ."
>
> Not in prep. for a *Cavern* course. Not in prep for *Intro to
> Cave*, not in
> prep. for *Apprentice Cave* , not in prep for *Full Cave* -- but in prep
> for a *deep caving course* from one of *your diving community* -- from one
> of the best cave/tech divers/instr.'s in the world -- another elite level
> athlete/member of your community -- a peer.
>
> Again, it appears she knew about JJ/WKPP/george/cave diving/etc. -- either
> influenced by you directly -- or by other members of her/your mutual
> communities.


As to who knew Jane, I did not---I knew Alan Pelstring, from freediving.
Many people I knew well, knew Jane, so I had heard enough about her to
almost feel as if I knew her. But Alan was a friend I dove with.

I was not aware Jane was taking  trimix lessons---I doubt George, JJ, or
anyone else other than her boyfriend knew she was going to take trimix, and
that she would want cave certification.
As strange as it may seem to you, most people do not check with us first.
And Alan had no idea how bad Derrick was---Derrick had instructor trainer
status, which would sound more qualified than just a normal trimix
instructor. And Jane did not ask Alan what she should do in diving---she was
her own person, she made up her own mind. And Alan had no way of knowing
what risk Derrick represented.

  I also had no real knowledge about how poor Derrick's diving skills
were---and I would not find this out until the call I got from Alan about
Jane's death, and from the recovery dive we did the next day, when I saw how
badly Derrick botched his dive plan and how close he came to another
accident.

>
> With the confidence of an experienced *rec. divemaster* and an elite level
> athlete -- on a single/fatal dive -- a *training dive* -- she wore a
> dry-suit *for the 1st time* (according to the *original* version from you
> guys) -- in open water *twice* the depth she was experienced in -- with
> heavy doubles -- plus stage bottles -- containing a variety of
> gases -- and
> multiple regulators -- plus multiple inflation devices (suit and BC) --
> having gotten the impression SOMEHWERE that she, as only elite level
> athletes are, was able/qualified to take on these tasks *all at
> once* -- in
> a class that she viewed as *nothing more than a Tech 101 prerequisite* for
> her *actual goal of becoming a deep cave diver*.
>
> My questions become:
>
> Who put her in harm's way for her fatal dive?


Derrick, by way of IANTD.

>
> Who mislead her about what it means/what it takes to be a tech diver?

Derrick, by way of IANTD.

>
> Who was her peer group? Her diving influences? Where were they when she
> took off to take the course?

Derrick and the guys at his shop had become her dive buddies.


>
> Who created the peer pressure that set her up for over-extending
> by far her
> actual abilities/experience?

Derrick, by way of IANTD.

>
> Who "sold" her on doing this -- who got the mind-set underway that *lead
> her to seek a tech instructor* (the one who later seems to have blown it
> big-time)?

Derrick, by way of IANTD.

>
> Who/what convinced her she could handle all this task loading at once? Did
> her instructor talk her into all this --

Yes.


or was she already convinced, in
> your opinion, that this was risk-free, basic, kindergarten stuff for elite
> level athletes?

No, you stupid farm animal. If you were a pig, I'd be turning you into bacon
right now.


>
> Who gave her the impression that being an elite level athlete
> meant she was
> also *already* one of the elite/few qualified to take on tech diving?

Asshole, NO ONE gave her this impression. She did not even want to deep
dive---she just wanted trimix certification so she would be comfortable in
mexican cenotes that got down to 130 feet---ask Alan about this. Derick
convinced her she needed the 300 foot dive  to become skilled--I heard about
all of this after she had been killed by Derick's negligence.

 Were
> the messages she heard about the risks involved accurate or misleading?

Ask Derrick.


>
> Who created her *perceived risk* attitude? Did she pull it out of
> thin air?

Chris, you are pulling an awful lot out of thin air---maybe you pulled this
out to. I have no idea what you are talking about now.


>
> Who's community was she part of and what messages about the risks did she
> receive from it?

Recreational diving community. Derrick was her technical mentor and dive
buddy.


>
> The dive lists? Wrolf's friends and neighbors? Mine? Neither of us had any
> contact with her. Neither of us recommends specific diving
> techniques/equipment. None of us go around dick-waving and
> bragging that we
> are the perfect specimens, the best in the world, accident-free, perfect
> safety record, done it all better/deeper/farther than anyone else
> can/hopes
> to; never claiming to be the authorities, the know-it-alls, the
> "real men",
> the baddest, tuffest, bravest, boldest. None of us have *ever*
> said we have
> taken the risk out of this kind of diving. Is that what you refer to as
> your group's "safety message"?


Chris, If I could just get you to go a few rounds with me at Steve
Sheppard's gym, I'd have a really good shot at making the world a safer
place for humanity, by eliminating you.  My safety message to you is ,
"flush your self down the toilet before you smell up the list anymore, or
infect anyone".


>
> Who was around her -- who were her peers/friends/info sources that helped
> form her opinions? Who would you ordinarily say is responsible
> for a friend
> going off half-cocked, over-amped, only partially or uninformed, going far
> beyond her actual skills/experience? Again, is that what you refer to as
> your group's (her peer group's) "safety message"?

Asshole, our message never got to her. Alan was not even tech diving with us
at that
time---I knew him from freediving, and freedivers don't talk scuba. He is
fully DIR compliant now, but at the time, he was listening to guys like you
and wrolf as much or more than any of the WKPP gang. With all the confusion
and misdirection, how was he to know we were right, and you were wrong. But
once he went out on the boat with us for the first time on a tech dive--the
recovery, he realized how enormous the difference was between your group and
the WKPP/DIR group, and from that moment on, I'm sure Alan considered guys
like you and Wrolf to be the lowest scum on the earth.


>
> The impression I get -- from what you guys put on the list -- is that you
> all were her first source and her greatest influence before she
> even got on
> the boat that day.


Pure Chris Brown. No brains, plenty of lies, a master of the misdirection.



>
> If the shoe fits, Dan, wear it. And if it's uncomfortable for you, don't
> try to change it for a jack boot. You may be able to kick my ass and the
> asses of 90% of people on the diving lists. But I'd still be right -- and
> you'd still be wrong.
>
> Just my opinion.


Chris, I don't have to wear the shoe, and you clearly have no handle at all
on the events as they transpired. I think a 5th grader could exercise better
research skills on a book report than what you just managed. But of course,
you do have your reputation at stake, and if you don't act stupidly enough,
you might be cast out of  stone's animal farm. Stone should be proud of you
again.
Now get off of our list and go eat some more shit.

Dan Volker



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