When I drop my weight, I can indeed float. When I am using steel, I have
a drysuit on. In either event, the whole rig gets dropped if that is
what it takes, but the eighties float.

Robert - why are we talking about the surface? Let's talk about at the
bottom, when I need to get up. I do the same - drop my weight, or use
the drysuit if the wings fail. 

Let's go even further - back to the boat : why do we not have a balanced
rig in the first place? 



Robert.Lockard@nc*.na*.mi* wrote:
> 
>      OK, time for my nickel on the subject.
> 
>      1. Can you make it to the surface without your bc?
>      2. If you can make it to the surface, can you stay there with out your
>      bc.
>      3. George, has your bc ever failed, and you had to tread water with
>      out the aid of flotation?  If this did happen to you, how long did you
>      have to tread water, how tired where you on a scale of 1 - 10?  10
>      being exhausted.  What was your tank, backpack configuration?
>        a. This has never happened to me, so I plan on trying it in the
>      pool.
>        b. If I can stay on the surface for 20min with out tiring, then my
>      rig (tank configuration) is right for me.  If not, then I need to
>      change my rig.
> 
>      Dive Safe
>      Robert
> 
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
> Subject: Re: Fw: cylinders-BC's etc
> Author:  "Tom Mount" <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*> at Internet
> Date:    7/18/98 5:07 PM
> 
> Beggin your pardon there is not a single reference to bondage wings in my
> post. George have you learned how to read yet
> 
> Second George have you ever even dived 98's let alone swam them without a BC
> or 85's as I stated I can swim both. Also if you read the post I told people
> to practice with whatever cylinders they are wearing so they can learn what
> they can or can not do. otherwise they can become educated about what they
> can do personally first hand in a non threatening manor. Or do have a
> problem with education .
> 
> George I have rescued more divers in my career than you ever will. and I
> have also recovered a lot of divers as in the 60's and 70's I was the one
> that always got called in to do those things.
> 
> 
> Tom
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Katherine V. Irvine <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
> To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
> Cc: cavers@ca*.co* <cavers@ca*.co*>; techdiver
> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Date: Friday, July 17, 1998 7:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: cylinders-BC's etc
> 
> 
> >Tom, this is one of many completely stupid and irresponsible pieces of
> >nonsense you have posted to the lists. I just did a body recovery on a
> >student of IANTD's who was wearing these riciculous bondage wings that
> >did not work, and we are still searching for the bodies of two more
> >victims who were wearing steel tanks in the ocean with wetsuits and one
> >of them , the one who had the problems that precipited the TRIPPLE
> >fatality, was using your beloved bondage wings.
> >
> >  You say "nobody dives" aluminium in the ocean. Well, Tom, I am not
> >exactly "nobody", and that is what I dive with a wetsuit. The reason,
> >which has obviously escaped you in all your years of diving, is that the
> >tanks have a 3 pound swing  (each) with air, and about a -1 + 3 with the
> >gas I usually dive . I wear a weightbelt and or a cannister light to
> >offset the max positive of the tanks. If I have a problem with this, I
> >drop the weightbelt - just like I learned in PADI Open Water One. What
> >do I drop with steel? Why not dive a balanced rig in the first place?
> >Why do you not understand this ?
> >
> >  With cold water , or deep water which is likely to be cold at the
> >bottom, a drysuit is the right choice, and with that steel can be used,
> >or aluminum with a wedge or steel plate, but then you have to try
> >walking around a pitching boat with heavy steel tanks - NOT TOO SMART,
> >not a well thought out recommendation from somebody who pretends to know
> >what they are doing. Clearly this is not the case. I have to admit to
> >having done this jmyself, but that was because when I got called to
> >recover the body of the last fatality here I only had my hundreds mixed
> >and ready to go. My aluminums had been already used looking for more of
> >yours in Palm Beach.
> >
> >Steel tanks with a wetsuit are too heavy , to negative, and too
> >dangerous, as the track record is now showing. Adding more convolution,
> >clustery and cluter to a rig with more bc's, double bc's, the totally
> >ridiculous bungeed wings ( I guess nobody has yet informed you that the
> >manufacturer does not recommend bungying the wings) is an accelleration
> >of task loading, drag, confusion and represents a mindset that is
> >incompatible with underwater activities, otherwise known as a "stroke".
> >
> > One would think that for once in your long life you wild learn
> >something, like when your idiot pal Jim ("I can't count my dead buddies
> >on one hand") Lockwood left Frank Martz in Blue Hole Number Four; Frank
> >was wearing 104's with a wetsuit ( and diving deep air, and diving with
> >a stroke). That was 30 years ago. One would think that with all of your
> >recommending of the bondage wings from your vast excperience you would
> >have noticed that the inflator does not work and was recalled, and that
> >the bungees are dangerous. I know of three deaths involving
> >non-functioning bungy wings, and you claim to be the big "expert" -
> >expert my ass.
> >
> > You go on in this post to recommend putting a "quick release" buckle on
> >a harness, one of the single dumbest things you have ever come up with .
> >We do not allow that or any plastic on a harness, and for good reason -
> >we do not want our gear to go one way, us the other (duh), and we are
> >diving caves with ceilings - using this in the ocean with no ceiling
> >borders are mental retardation. You then "challenge" - this is a big
> >thing with you - anyone to try a rescue with hundreds and stages. Try
> >Jarrod Jablonski - he did it at Wakulla with three stages on the diver,
> >and he stripped his gear and revived him on the surface. I "challenge"
> >you to recommend a piece of gear that works, a method that is sound, or
> >anything that makes any sense what so ever - you can't do it.
> >
> >  You also neglect to mention that another one of your famous
> >"standards" which has been implicated in several other deaths of late,
> >is the business of trying to identify what gas is in what bottle by the
> >position the bottle is worn in. This is dangerously stupid, and its
> >track reocrd says so.
> >
> >  You say "this is not a bands name post " - BULLSHIT - it is your
> >recommendation of everything OMS makes and sells. Tom, when one uses an
> >OMS steel backplate ( -5-6 lbs ), OMS tanks ( -the weight of the gas ),
> >and any other gear , like a light ( -7 lbs), one is starting the dive at
> >minus 24 to minus 30 pounds - only a real asshole would do that,
> >recommend that , or try that. When one uses the aluminum with an
> >aluminum backplate everything but the gas is ditchable, and that leaves
> >you minus 6 with air, minus 2.5 with 50% Helium . 2.5 pounds. Not 30 ,
> >2.5. THINK FOR ONCE .
> >
> >You last line, which reads "from experience instead of arm chair theory"
> >is a classic - how the deaths, Tom - what do you call that ? How about
> >MY experience , Tom? How about that? I can make sense - you don't. Quit
> >recommending dangerous nonsense and get with the program - the program
> >is doing things properly and safely, not convoluting, making excuses,
> >bullshitting, and talking out of your ass - the fact that you continue
> >to recommend and make the same mistakes is appalling.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >******** the uninteligable slop below is the post I refer to ***********
> >
> >
> >
> >Fw: cylinders-BC's  =
> >wet. Yet I rarely see anyone in the ocean diving deep on Aluminum =
> >cylinders. Including me I use the OMS double 85's and love them. If fact
> >=
> >Aluminum 80's would be my last choice of diving cylinders.
> >=20
> >How many people on this list have dived either OMS double 98's (not =
> >pressed steel 95's) or OMS 85's. Those of you who have most likely can =
> >report that you can dive them even in event of BC failure. I have =
> >practiced this with both and have no problem with a 3 mil wet suit. =
> >(using Al 40's for stages)=20
> >=20
> >In fresh water with a 3 mil suit and no cylinders or other gear I can =
> >lay on the bottom of a pool, so you can say I'm negative buoyant , Yet =
> >swimming these cylinders is doable, With steel 45's  it would be =
> >difficult and I would definitely recommend a backup BC inthis event. >=20
> >On the subject of redundant BC's if a failure occurs with any tank =
> >configuration double 80's or whatever the second  BC may save your life
> >=
> >or the life of a buddy who has had a BC failure. So although I do not =
> >always use a second BC when diving wet I certainly support the logic =
> >behind its use. For an instructor who must make a rescue it could prove
> >=
> >to be a valuable asset.
> >=20
> >I see discussions on using the lift bag as a redundant BC , on ascent or
> >=
> >on the bottom it will work , but how about during a rapid descent in  =
> >deep water, how easily will you pull out the bag hook it up to a reel =
> >and deploy the lift bag, some of you should attempt to practice this =
> >during a rapid descent and see how well it works, then come back and =
> >give you views on it s use as a reliable backup BC.  plus what if the =
> >reel jams or the lift bag dumps, what is the reliability factor in this
> >=
> >method?=20
> >=20
> > Also have a buddy get totally negative and simulate a rescue using just
> >=
> >your BC or a lift bag. I plan to experiment with this some myself, due =
> >to a conservation I had with one of our instructors this morning. =
> >Remember this has to be doable at a high rate of descent trying to =
> >manage yourself and your buddy. Also factor in that you are fully =
> >negative at first in order to catch the descending diver. So :\
> >1. Catch the buddy
> >2. Make contact
> >3. Stabilize buoyancy
> >4. Start ascent
> >5. on the surface remain stable
> >Note! check your gas consumption during this drill.=20
> >=20
> >I suggest we all go out and experiment with this before drawing =
> >conclusions about what does or does not work. and what works under what
> >=
> >circumstance?
> >=20
> >Note this is not a brands or no brands post this is a lets see what =
> >really works post and then for those who are willing to do the practices
> >=
> >a discussion of the results. Any takers??
> >=20
> >Second practice drill while using continuos webbing (no quick releases)
> >=
> >have a buddy simulate being unconsciousness , while in doubles and two =
> >stages. Remove the stages, and doubles on the surface as well as your =
> >own as in making a real life rescue. To make this more real simulate =
> >mouth to mouth as you are doing it.,
> >=20
> >Those of you who have QD's should also practice this skill.
> >=20
> >This is a good basic buddy rescue skill and we should all remain =
> >proficient in it.
> >=20
> >You should also time your results and bear in mind that if the diver has
> >=
> >no pulse  or it is an AGE, the time this is accomplished in is critical.
> >=20
> >The above skill is required in IANTD trimix courses now adays so I have
> >=
> >some knowledge of how well it works in both applications.=20
> >=20
> >Remember try these first and then talk about it from experience instead
> >=
> >of arm chair theory
> >=20
> >Tom
> >Tom
> >
> >
> 
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