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On 7/21/98 6:01, Mike Zimmerman, zimmmt@au*.al*.co* posted: >Ah but this is different. Certain people have been making claims >about what is good/bad, right/wrong. I have simply asked that they >back up those claims with reasoning. I did not walk up to Cobber on a >dive boat and insist he justify his gear choice. He was one of the many >blasting OMS wings on this forum... I called the bluff and said ok, back >it up. Yup, see that everyday, too. Journeymen make claims that apprentices don't understand, much to the chagrin of said apprentice. What the apprentice does next is what determines how it comes out. The J-man doesn't care, in fact, as is often the case here, he could be baiting the ape intentionally! He doesn't care, because he already knows. It doesn't hurt him if the ape doesn't learn, so he has his choice between the club and the carrot. >It reminds me of the Monty Python skit of the witch in the Holy Grail. >You've got a whole crowd yelling "she's a a witch". Half of 'em don't >know or care. I can't stand python, and have never seen the holy grail. >> WKPP doesn't care if you learn, Mike. > >George has stated multiple time that his his, er, "determined" manner >is because he wants to help people be safer. I dunno, I'd equate that >to him wanting to educate others. While I think his tone goes >above and beyond what is needed, I still think it is out of concern and >not because it trips his trigger. George cares that someone learn, and he knows that someone will. He also knows that that will improve the sport. He just doesn't care WHO learns. >No one learns when the process is not explained. Naive, Mike, as well as blind. Apes learn trades every day from men who only speak on payday. Of course, the apes are a lot quieter than you are... I've learned one hell of a lot here. Maybe you meant to say that COLLEGE BOYS don't learn without a bunch of chatter, arm waving, and hand holding. >When you follow only >the right way, you do not learn from failing in the wrong way, and >the virtues of the right way are not explained. Right. My mistake. If at first you don't succeed, so much for sky diving. >Ah the sticks and stones of Jammer. Thanks but I am quite an adequate >student for the motivated instructor. Haven't seen any evidence of that here. All I've seen is the "sticks and stones" of Mike. Haven't seen a question, just demands for proof, couched in a strident attitude. Tell you what, Mike. You keep demanding, and let me know if the world ever changes. >The question is whether someone is truly interested in teaching, or simply in turning the crank >on the assembly line of divers. Well, maybe that's your question, but that has nothing to do with this list. This list certainly doesn't exist to be an "assembly line" of any type. This list conveys knowledge, but, apparently, only to certain people. The ones who can hear it. >I thought that was the problem lately, students who immitate rather than understand. I said they BEGIN by imitating. Then I mentioned a series of lights. You might like the lights, Mike. >I'd rather have a student that wants to understand. Well, when you become a teacher, you can pick your students based on any criteria you want. No one is asking for you opinions right now, and I don't see anyone here asking you to teach them. George, JJ, and WKPP, on the other hand, are swamped daily with people who want to learn from them. They have their choice about who to teach, and how. Given that choice, Mike, I wouldn't pick anyone who started off with demands for proof... I would pick people who were there because they already believed that I had something to teach, and were willing to learn it. >They are the ones who are going to survive when they encounter something that you forgot >to teach them to immitate. Well, they're SOME of the ones who are going to survive. >Who is going to survive your tanks Jammer? The student who learns >that all tanks will have big neon nitrox sticker, or the student >that understand you don't make any assumptions about an unmarked >tank until you analyze it? What does that show? You're discussing a result of a given level of knowledge, I'm talking about ways of learning and ways of teaching. >Actually I've traded mail with several people who are in the position of >"teaching" that agree that the "tone" of the list should be lessened >in the interest of actually accomplishing something. People are starting >to realize that yelling at people isn't always the best way to get >then to see your point. Yes. People have yammered about that since teaching began, which was a hell of long time ago. >That would mean that George, et al, are simply here to hear themselves speak. >I guess I give them more credit than that. No, they're doing because they know that as a result, SOMEONE will learn, and they're right. I did. They just don't care if it's YOU that learns. That's up to you. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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