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On 7/20/98 18:27, Mike Zimmerman, zimmmt@au*.al*.co* posted:
>I do have a beef that it seems that only "they" ever come up
>with ideas... given, they have probably explored most options, but
>anything "different" aften seems to be dismised out of hand
>as "wrong", not simply "differnet". that impressions bothers me.
I don't see where you get this idea. What makes you think only "they"
ever come up with anything?
>Not really Jammer, I have simply been insisting that the double-wings
>be PROVEN bad by LOGIC, not by simply attaching labels and by unfounded
>speculation that every death with a diver in those wings must be
>attributable to them even when proof is totally lacking.
>
>I am insisting that the gear discussions be "done right". That they
>be based on facts, not impressions over-blown with invective which has
>often been the case.
>
>Then Jammer you are being no better than a lemming. If you don't
>question, if you don't ask, if you don't challenge until you
>understand, then you are no better off than one of these students
>that does trust-me dives. Granted your odds are MUCH better doing
>trust-me's with WKPP, but still (as Dan can attest :-) ) I don't
>believe in doing something, and certainly not insisting others
>do it until I understand it myself.
Perhaps. I come from a background and a trade that would make me a good
lemming, once the leader has been selected.
I see apprentices with your attitude all the time, Mike. They don't have
any clue, they are sure that they have a better way, and they want the
logic of our decisions explained to them, in detail, or they're convinced
that we don't know what the hell we're talking about, because we can't,
or won't, explain it to their satisfaction.
WKPP doesn't care if you learn, Mike. It doesn't matter to them if you
understand, or get your panties so tightly wadded you can't shit without
assistance.
Me, I just send the apes for coffee, and ignore 'em.
I'm not going to explain the way I build buildings to them, but I pay
them, and I allow them to be there, and once they shut up, and start
listening and watching closely, some of them turn out to be highly
skilled tradesmen. They do it by imitation at first, and slowly, year
after year, a sequence of small lights go on as they progress. It's the
same here.
So, yes, I can see how the level of trust necessary to learn a trade
could be doubled back on the ape, but it's not up to the teacher to
teach, Mike. It's up to the student to learn.
Some students need to learn how to learn, and it strikes me that perhaps
that's where you're having difficulty.
The way you're going about it here would get you isolated, sent for
coffee, and shunned on a job site, and if you think of WKPP as the
journeymen, and us as apprentices, it starts to fall into place how to
get information here. At least, for a tradesman. I don't know what the
hell you Degrees are going to do. Nobody every bothered to teach you poor
bastards how to get information out of a Journeyman.
At least, I found that to be so. Not saying it's the case with you, but I
found it to be so with me.
>Growl, pay attention guy, I started that whole thing saying take
>the bloody bungees off, just arguing the merits of a 2nd bladder....
Except for the last section, that's all I was arguing.
>Again remember I am doing this as devil's advocate pushing until
>they can conclusively prove their claims about the wings.
They're not going to, Mike. They don't care if you learn, or if their
views are ever "proven" to your satisfaction. Their knowledge is there
for you to either appreciate, ignore, or defile.
They don't care about that, either.
>> Why carry a backup system for a problem that can be prevented?
>
>Maybe it can, maybe it can't.
Maybe this is your problem. Maybe you better.
>I agree if you can dive without need for
>backup buoyancy that would be best.
Now we're getting somewhere.
> Assume you do need it
>though, what are your options. Would OMS wings (without the
>bungees) be a workable options. Why, why not?
Why make this assumption? Why not correct the real problem, the need for
a THIRD redundant system?
>No, don't look at them as challenging the gear system, look
>at them as challenging the debate/on-line system. These guys
>are cyber diving with the equivalent of the milk jug BC's from the
>60's/70's. They argue with a club, not reason. If they want people
>to really learn I am challenging to teach, not to get comformity
>through intimidation. I don't think it's too late for that at all.
Yup. I agree. I see it everyday. In the trades, it works. I think it'll
work here, too. They don't care if you learn, and the club is a lot
easier for them to use than debate, or logic. They'll use the club to
eliminate the people who can't learn under it, because that's easier than
trying to teach everyone.
>> Yes, a fourth. Your wings, your drysuit, and your fins, in that order. A
>> weightbelt makes it four. Dive in a wetsuit, and you still have two,
>> three if you have a drysuit.
>
>you are making assumptions that that gear config meets everyone;s
>needs. nix the drysuit, and nix the weightbelt.
And you still have two systems! Your bladder, and your fins.
If you need more, there's another problem. You are STILL arguing for (at
least) a third system.
>> 2. The second set of wings never serves any purpose except in an
>> emergency.
>
>um, gee, that's when you'd want them. Or their equivalent
>in some other form.
Yup. Like fins. Which also serve another purpose.
>> 3. A single set of wings cost less than a double set of wings.
>
>Invalid according to Al. He says $ is not an issue and that we
>should all dive dry, even in warm water.
OK, I'll buy that. I don't like reasons that don't apply below the
surface, anyway.
>> 4. Improper installation of the bungees prevent the full inflation of the
>> wings.
>
>Lest I repeat again, no bungees. not an issue.
OK.
>although for the isolated issue of just the 2nd bladder I think
>I can nix 2-3 of those reasons, I am not saying you cannot
>come up with replacements. I am just trying to insist that they
>resemble 1-4, stand up to scrutiny, and are not like 5 & 6:-)
>
>If great to "do it right" with our gear. It'd be nice if we
>could "do it right" with the on-line discussions of our gear
>as well. I for one would learn a hell of a lot more, and I
>suspect others would as well.
That's my whole point. The hard facts are that no one cares if you or I
learn or not.
That's up to us. It's not up to apprentices to tell journeymen how to
teach, it's up to them to learn.
It can be done here. I've done it, and I've seen others do it.
But the tack you're taking wouldn't work if I tried it.
"Jesus. College Boys.
No one taught 'em anything, and they come out all stridant, wanna argue
all the time, don't even know how to learn..."
-General Forman, surveying the remains of a 1st Year Carpenter's
Apprentice who dropped off the roof of Hec Edmundson Pavilion, in the
summer of 1983.
--
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