Read the post!
Is it not you that asks for the facts?
Is it not you that has stated we need to know all for the correct
conclusions so that the problems can be fixed?

Why is it that you have to slam everyone. I am just trying to get all the
facts out so we all know what REALLY happened and not a guess.

Is Narcosis real? Yes.
Can it and is it dangerous? Yes.

Do I want to die in a dive accident? No. Do I want to die? No.
Do I want to avoid problems myself and help other avoid problems? Yes.

Do not make assumptions about me without knowing me. Take the time to get
the facts. Make decision and conclusions from facts and not best guesses.
That will give the regulating agencies some more rope to run with.
You seem to have a great interest in "Doing it Right". I do not believe that
the Florida group has that goal cornered to themselves. But the extreme
conditions in the caves and knowledge has and will benefit all.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Katherine V. Irvine [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*]
> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 1998 6:06 PM
> To: Dave Dalton
> Cc: dwiden@in*.ne*; techdiver@aquanaut.com; cavers@ca*.co*
> Subject: Re: PA Quarry Near Drowning - Deep Air the culprit???
>
>
> David Widen - let me know when one of the "assumptions" proves to be
> false. The problem with guys like you is that obvious just isn't good
> enough - you need to go ahead and get killed yourself to find out. As
> long as you copied this to the "cavers" list, maybe we can
> pull out the
> track record of accidents in caves to show you and the others that in
> fact beyond 1200 feet there seems to be the magic abliity to turn a
> weenie case divie into a death.
>
> I know for a fact that 120 is more narcosis than I want, than I want
> anyone around me to have, or than I will allow around me. It is for
> idiots and strokes, and we have no lack of those, now do we Dave?
>
> Dave, would you like your dive accidents reports served up
> with a two by
> four to help you get it? I love it when we have to listen to some
> "expert" tell us what potentiates narcosis. Bullhsit potentiates it -
> bullshit thinking that says it is "ok". What potentiates a
> heroin buzz,
> Dave, maybe something very similar? Ever done Versed? It is deep air
> exactly. Give that one a try ( only 120 feet worth to be safe ).
> Dave Dalton wrote:
> >
> >  "David Widen" <dwiden@in*.ne*> writes:
> >
> > >Great report of known facts.
> > >
> > >But, here we go again with assumptions:
> >
> > >* Was he diving a mix?
> > >* He was "Nitrox certified", was he diving Nitrox? What
> was EAD, MOD,
> > >END, PPO2, etc ?
> >
> > Sorry, my fault, I thought I included that.  He was diving
> air according
> > to his buddy and another diver who was with the same group but not
> > buddied up with him.
> >
> > >* Tanks have not been recovered for analysis in this report.
> >
> > They were still trying to find his tanks when we left.
> Given the fact
> > that he was alive and according to the EMT I spoke to
> later, doing ok, I
> > seriously doubt that anyone will conduct an analysis of the
> tanks, unless
> > he does it himself to see if he was diving nitrox at 120
> and toxed.  My
> > conjecture is that he did not tox, because based on what I
> know of oxygen
> > toxicity, "it don't go away if you continue to breathe the
> same stuff at
> > the same depth" and after he was left by his buddy, he
> functioned to the
> > point that he was able to ditch his gear.
> >
> > >* No where in the report is it stated that type of mix or
> normal air.
> >
> > Covered above
> >
> > >* Narcosis - was he deep enough - Yes. There many other causes,
> > >including STRESS, that cause one to loose skills besides
> NARCOSIS. Some
> > of these are Bad Air, O2 Toxicity, improper breathing, CO2 build up,
> > equipment,
> > >preparation, equipment location, planning, etc.
> >
> > Agreed!
> >
> > >Recreational deep still extends to 130 fsw. So does 120
> ffw now falls
> > into
> > >the category of "Deep AIR"?
> >
> > When I started diving in 1962 there was no recreational
> diving limit,
> > there was no tech diving, there was no nitrox
> certification, there was no
> > tri-mix, nobody talked about EAD, END, MOD, PPO2, for that
> matter the
> > first diving course I took in 62 didn't even produce a national
> > certification or card of any kind, just a certificate from Ohio
> > Skindivers Headquarters.  As far as the effects of nitrogen
> narcosis we
> > referred to "Martini's Law",  which, for those of you who have never
> > heard of it, is that each 50 feet of depth was equal to one
> dry martini
> > on an empty stomach. Rather imprecise, wouldn't you say?
> >
> >  What I have learned in 36 years in this activity is that
> the conditions
> > in which you are diving play a large part in the effects or
> (lack there
> > of) of NARCOSIS on an individual.
> >
> >  On the one hand in 1979, I took my wife on a wall dive in
> Cayman to 120
> > fsw. Temperature was 82 degrees (f), visibility was 100
> +++++++.  She had
> > her basic certification at the time (I taught her to dive when I was
> > still an active instructor) and maybe 5 more logged dives,
> all in Cayman
> > during that same week, No problem, piece of cake!!
> >
> > On the other hand my son was certified in October of last
> year taught by
> > a friend of mine (I haven't taught since the early 1980's) and I was
> > there during the whole course, in the pool and on the check
> out dives.
> > He has logged 9 more dives with me this year and I would't think of
> > taking him to 120' in 40 degree (f) with limited visibility
> (<20 feet),
> > even though he is a strong swimmer and 5 times the diver my
> wife was.
> >
> > CONDITIONS PLAY AN IMPORTANT PART!!!!!
> >
> > The recreational diving limit of 130 feet was established
> for liability
> > purposes and is in no way constant regardless of conditions.
> >
> > >We need more information from the buddy that was there with him.
> >
> > Call up Bainbridge Sportsmen's Club and see if they can get
> you in touch
> > with him.  All I know is that his first name is Russ.  I
> play Federal
> > Agent 40 hours a week as it is, I don't need to play diving accident
> > investigator on my weekends.
> >
> > >Check the buddy for panic and stress besides the diver's
> stress level.
> >
> > When I was trying to get information from the buddy, to
> assist in the
> > rescue attempt, he was in a HIGHLY agitated state,
> obviously stressed out
> > to the max!  I have no idea if the stress was caused by his
> inability to
> > function at depth or because he left his buddy impaired and
> because of
> > that his buddy might die.  I don't even know if the buddy
> left because of
> > he was low on air or because of a catastrophic equipment
> malfunction.
> > And frankly Scarlet (I mean David) I don't give a damn!
> >
> > As  told my son, nobody is totally without value, they can
> always serve
> > as a bad example.
> >
> > Remember David, you can always trust a guy named David.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> _____________________________________________________________________
> > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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>
>

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