Hank, we do not dive air for anything, we dive the appropriate trimix.
We mark our bottles properly. There goes two possibilities. I dove with
you and Janet dwon here, me on gas, you on air, and you both asked me
after the dive where I was when I was between you two the whole dive,
You did not remember the crystals I showed you , you did not remember
the wheelhouse, you did not remember anything, and Hank, old buddy, that
was at 160 feet in clear water. 

"Emulating" me takes a lot more than anything that is being done out
there, and any "modifications" voids the warranty. 

The important issue is the gas, its identification, and its deployment.
The next issues are obvious: lines, lights, etc. 

When these accidents happen, it would be nice to list anything that
might have had an impact so that it can be avoided by others. There have
been no accidents in thousands of man dives with me running the WKPP -
and the "emulation" there is at a much higher level, although I will
admit to you that the personal preference, strokery, and stupidity
within my own organization is so high that I am going to call it luck
only , and call it by the Grace of God that nobody has been killed under
me. I will also call it a lot of bad weather, a lot of me keeping a lid
on it, and a lot of me being such a severe asshole that most people will
not either come near me, or certainly not take any chances of doing
anything stupid that I might hear about. Another factor working strongly
in favor of my stellar track record  is that most of these guys get the
piss bent out of them and drop out after a taste of one of our weenie
dives, which of course are like your whole summmer of diving in one
exposure.

However, the basics must be brought out in these cases and discussed. My
personal opinion is that you are the last line of defense against
obvious insanity up there, and you should exercise it. I am not saying
you are responsible . There is no way to know if somebady is bad, but
some of the basics need to be fostered by somebody up there, and the two
big training agencies are not cutting it in my book. You are the big
guy, Hank, you know what is right , and you have the keys to the boat.

My bet on all three deaths up there is "wrong gas" , one way or
another.By the way, I though you two did your last deep air dive with
me. That's what Beiser told me.
 
GarlooEnt@ao*.co* wrote:
> 
> george, i don't have a problem discussing this on the list if that's what you
> want
> to do. i honestly don't have all the time that is takes once these threads get
> going & it seems lately that most things go in a down hill fasion rather
> quickly.
> 
> but what the hell-
> first off most of the rime the information that you are "demanding" is just
> not readily available. but truthfully george you know that you in the past
> (including this case) have jumped using your own "pizza stained " conclusions
> without any facts at all.
> i am not going to get into the doing it right  shtick with you- i happen to
> agree with many of the ideas & concepts of the techniques. i just don't think
> that it all - always  applies in our diving. most of the deaths (tech) have
> been with people trying toi emulate the style of diving (& equip config) that
> you guys use. some have varried tem somewhat. some have used equipment that
> you don't like but the overall approach has followed your standards.
> unfortunatly that is not enough. purhapse when bill & jarrod actually have an
> impact by having the new organization "take over" & train enough people it
> will make a difference. i think you will find that in the big picture the
> statistics will tend to follow even them (by the way i hope i am wrong there &
> that you are right).
> 
> most of the accidents that we talk about we can only surmise as to the actual
> scenario. for example the last diver on the doria (& i appologize for not
> remembering his name) was working in the 1st class kitchen by himself - did he
> run a line? i doubt it since there were already 2 lines leading into that area
> already.
> the big question here is not what shit he had on his back-since the area he
> was working in had a max depth of about 230-235, but how well did he know
> where he was & how much experience did he have in zero vis(once he stirred
> things up) in a place he had never been before(or only once).
> the second question (which i believe is the most important) is what kind of
> attitude did he have about the artifacts. it has been my observation that, at
> least in the losses that i have seen or looked at up here, the greed factor is
> the one that stands out the most. it overcomes some of the most logical
> divers. they see one guy (who may have over 100 dives in a spot come up with
> something & they gat to have one too. we try to downplay the importants of the
> stuff as a matter of  fact we usually don't make a big display (the crew that
> is) of what's come up. when someone askes where did you get it we usually go
> though a long discussion of what's important about getting back first then
> worrying about the artifacts.
> i will not tell you that at times the "fever" has not struck me as well
> however i can say that when the time came to make any choice the bag stayed &
> i left.
> 
> the diver from Michigan appears to have exited the kitchen from another route
> or in fact went into the bar directly (which i doubt- for if he did  he would
> have easily found his way out - with the experience i was told he had). when
> he got into the bar area he did not know that he had to transvers the bar for
> about 50 ft to find an exit. at that point hed probably (only speculation on
> my part) ran out of back gas & given the choice of no air or some ean that he
> had probably(another suposition) went to that hoping to make an ascent before
> he toxed.
> 
> would he have done better with a buddy? probably. when i'm diving in a spot
> that i know i am going to silt the shit out of i usually have someone along to
> shine a light to show me the way out.
> manny of the times that i dive deep i at least go in with a buddy but to be
> honest i find that it inhibits me on my explorations of a wreck. most of the
> time that i am diving on these wrecks i don't exit in the same direction that
> i entered from (as is  a
> common practice with many of the more experienced divers). leaving a line only
> tempts another (possibly less experiences diver) to follow & get lost.
> george you know we have had this conversatin about progressive penitration &
> even though the cave community generaly condems it -how many of you routes in
> your caves start at the begining of the cave? don't most of them start a good
> distance from the entrance so that the mooks can't get started on the line?
> 
> we have spent three years working on a relationship of plain honest discusions
> between the two of us, i hope that it can continue. i know buy your WKKP
> standards i would be a stroke in you environment( & honestly if i dove in your
> caves{NOT a likely happenstance} i would definitly adapt my gear to your
> style-when in rome you know).
> i am trying not to criticize your coments but simply try to maintain an honest
> approch to the problems.
> 
> i hope to get you out with us soon (as soon as you get tired of the hole in
> the ground simple stuff you have down there;-)  ) the water is almost to your
> liking 45 on the bottom & 70 ish on the hangs.
> hank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 98-07-13 05:34:18 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Subj:         Re: Andrea Doria Death
>  Date:  98-07-13 05:34:18 EDT
>  From:  kirvine@sa*.ne* (Katherine V. Irvine)
>  Reply-to:      kirvine@sa*.ne*
>  To:    GarlooEnt@ao*.co*
>  CC:    scuba@md*.co*, techdiver@aquanaut.com
> 
>  Hank, show me the source of the gas analysis - this sounds like bs to
>  me. Forget Ted, he is not the problem, the problem is that in all
>  accidents , we immediatley hear how everything was perfect, but the
>  diver is dead. You guys skipped over every last detail and threw out
>  some bullshit "facts" that are ASSUMPTIONS on your part. I want to know
>  what was in the "empty" tanks by analysis, and what the gear was. Every
>  detail. That is the "coverup" - not giving the facts and immediately
>  covering with bs about "30% being ok for the depth he was at". That is
>  absolute crap. Only the worst idiot goes in with a gas other than for
>  the depest depth - only the absolute worst screaming moron.
> 
>  By the way, where was this guy's buddy? Why are you letting these
>  strokes solo dive in the North Atlantic? Hank, what are they going to do
>  , take thier business elsewhere? There is no elsewhere - YOU are the
>  last line of defense these idiots have against themselves - exercise it.
> 
>  GarlooEnt@ao*.co* wrote:
>  >
>  > katherine,
>  > just for my enlightenment please indulge me- what part of Teds explaination
> of
>  > the event appears to you as a cover up???
>  > hank
>  >
>  > In a message dated 98-07-12 07:51:21 EDT, kirvine@sa*.ne* writes:
>  >
>  > << Subj:         Re: Andrea Doria Death
>  >  Date:  98-07-12 07:51:21 EDT
>  >  From:  kirvine@sa*.ne* (Katherine V. Irvine)
>  >  Reply-to:      kirvine@sa*.ne*
>  >  To:    scuba@md*.co*
>  >  CC:    techdiver@aquanaut.com
>  >
>  >  Ted, you do not get it: this guy is dead, and you wnat to make excuses.
>  >  He ran out of gas? Why is that, Ted? Did he get lost due to the practice
>  >  of "progressive penetration" that the idiots up there use?
>  >
>  >  By the way, let's see if we can get this Doria crap straight. Is it
>  >  really a 212 foot dive or a 240 foot dive? Which is it , Ted. Is it a
>  >  30% trimix dive or does real trimix need to be used? I use more helium
>  >  than that in my deco gas.
>  >
>  >  Was the analysis of the empty tanks 30%, or is that the bullshit you
>  >  guys are trying to pretend? Why 30%? What depth was planned?
>  >
>  >  This sounds to me like the usual dive instructor cover up bull - this
>  >  guy is dead, and the excuses don't count. All of you guys need to learn
>  >  how to do things properly, and then teach that.
>  >
>  >  Why is it that none of you will come oput with a truthfull story on
>  >  accidents so that others can learn? Why ? The fadct is that I have seen
>  >  some of the ridculous crap you guys come down here practicing, and I
>  >  hear the riciculous crap you guys recommend, and I understand exactly
>  >  why there are so many accidents. WHat I do not understand is why we can
>  >  never get the real story so they can be prevented.
>  >
>  >  I do dives that you guys can't even begin to understand on a routine
>  >  basis, with several teams of other divers doing the same thing, and
>  >  nothing seems to happen. Why is that? Keep in mind that we are talking
>  >  EVERY level of experience, not just one set of players, and we are
>  >  talking years and years of doing it to the absolute edge of the
>  >  envelope.
>  >
>  >  Ted Green wrote:
>  >  >
>  >  > > Date:          Thu, 02 Jul 1998 21:24:27 -0400
>  >  > > From:          "Katherine V. Irvine" <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
>  >  >
>  >  > > Can somebody enlighten us on the Doria Death this week? Skip the
> "diver
>  >  > > error", and cut to the chase:
>  >  >
>  >  >    On Wednesday June 24th Craig Sicola died around 12 noon after
>  >  > surfacing from a dive on the Andrea Doria. About 30 minutes into the
>  >  > dive he shot a lift bag which was tethered to the wreck by his
>  >  > up line. About 7 minutes later his body surfaced. His main tanks
>  >  > which had Trimix 16/30 were empty, and neither of his stage bottles
>  >  > had been used. He was given CPR for 1 1/2 hours until the Coast Guard
>  >  > air lifted his body from the dive boat. At no time did he ever regain
>  >  > vital signs. Craig was neither a student, nor was this his first trip
>  >  > to the Andrea Doria. The Trimix he was diving should have had  an END
>  >  > of about 130 to 140 for the depth he was at inside the wreck. He was
>  >  > unfortunately diving by himself.
>  >  >
>  >  > > 1) DID WE HAVE THE AIR ON ON THE BACK, SIDE BOTTLE
>  >  > >     OF MIX ?
>  >  >        Graig was diving Trimix 16/30 with a stage of O2 and one of
>  >  >        EAN for the deep stops.
>  >  >
>  >  > > 2) DID WE HAVE THE USUAL STROKE GEAR, MAYBE A SET
>  >  > >     OF BONDAGE WINGS THAT DID NOT WORK WHEN THE
>  >  > >     GUY TRIED TO BRING UP HIS LOOT?
>  >  >         While I don't remember what make of wing he was using, he
>  >  >         came to the surface unassisted. The wing that he was diving
>  >  >         seemed to have more than enough lift to bring Craig and the
> three
>  >  >         dishes that were in his mesh bag to the surface.
>  >  >
>  >  > > 3) DID WE HAVE A LITTLE DEEP AIR FROM THE GET GO?
>  >  >         No.
>  >  >
>  >  > > 4) WERE ALL THE USUAL SUSPECTS , STROKES, FAT SLOBS
>  >  > >      WITH PIZZA STAINED DORIA SHIRTS AND CAPTAINS
>  >  > >      HATS ON HAND?
>  >  >         There were no fat slobs on the boat. The Doria shirts were
>  >  >         not pizza stained (although one may have had a coffee stain).
>  >  >         While there were 4 licensed captains on the trip, I don't
>  >  >          remember any of us wearing a hat that said "CAPTAIN" on it.
>  >  >         As for "STROKES", well that seems to be more of a Florida
>  >  >          thing.
>  >  >
>  >  > >   I will put money on this one sight unseen. All of the above. how
> about
>  >  > > it, you guys are being real carefull not to tell these stories now,
> but
>  >  > > we will find out.
>  >  >
>  >  >         Katherine, I am sure you are a person of your word, I will
>  >  > get you the name and address of Craig's next of kin so you can mail
>  >  > them that money.
>  >  >
>  >  >      While this was neither my charter nor was I on the boat when
>  >  > Craig surfaced, I have or can obtain any facts that were not covered
>  >  > above. Craigs death was unfortunate and while I will answer pertinent
>  >  > questions regarding his death, I will not waste my time responding
>  >  > to bullshit from cyber divers.
>  >  >
>  >  > Ted
>  >  >
>  >  > Ted Green (Owner)
>  >  > Tidewater Aquatics (Dive Store)
>  >  > Salisbury Maryland USA
>  >  > Master Instructor SSI #178
>  >  > Trimix Instructor TDI #029
>  >
>  >
>


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