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What a gracious person Johnny boy seems to be. You said "Seeing that all of this slamming is about agency inqualities why would you prefer that people take less training and then send them out telling them that their something that their not(a competent tech diver)." I dont think that Billy (or me by inference) said anything about less training, just less courses. A handful of comprehensive, well structured courses along the progression Billy talks about is logical and works well for many people who can grasp the concepts. A person should be able to learn nitrox theory in one comprehensive course. You don't see PADI, SSI or NAUI offering a basic nitrox course, and a so-called "Advanced EANx" course just to be able to use any mix up to 40% on a no-deco dive within 40m. In fact, the PADI Enriched Air course is pretty much equivalent to most tech agencies' basic nitrox course. People wanting to move beyond this level should be able to decide if they're wanting to go into deco diving, using EANx as a deco gas. By this time they should also be experienced to the pre-requisite level. If they aren't able to make the decision without three more bite sized courses, they're not ready. Full stop. You say that in the "piecemeal" course structure, the instructor has the option to combine courses to give a similar effect. Thats excellent, as long as ALL the pre-requisites for all the courses are met, and the course skill progression is logical. In the case of this last CF, it sounds like anything but. Infact it "sounds" like the progression was straight from EANx to Trimix, with other courses combined. Where was the progression of skill development with equip configs for deco with sling cylinders, and then to multiple slings and finally onto trimix after lots of dives. To me a trimix course should be structured over months, after the student is already a well qualified diver experienced with deco theory and practice, equip config and so on. This would be a well structured, comprehensive course. Note its one trimix course, not two. We obviously disagree on this one John. Thats fine.... Safe diving Des Paroz paroz@oz*.co*.au* -----Original Message----- From: John Walker <techdive@ea*.ne*> To: bdi@wh*.ne* <bdi@wh*.ne*> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Date: Friday, 29 May 1998 0:49 Subject: Re:Covoluted hoovery >OK Billy, we'll keep it above the board and out in the open. You sat >there and put words into my mouth but I'm not going to waste time >straigtning what I said versus what you said I said out. I am going abit >further than leaving your questions to a simple yes or no and am adding >a couple extra comments as well as questions for you. And since you >insist on keeping this conversation going over techdiver, I decided to >change the subject name. > > (1) As for the cylinder markings: Like I've told many others, I do >like the way WKPP marks their cylinders but I see one problem. For >thoughs how have made comments about the pricy stickers that agencies >sell. The person filling the cylinder (most of the time at a dive shop) >would probably feel more at ease if their were an official type of a >marking stating that the cylinder has been cleaned for O2 service and I >know this is no guarantee that it has been, but anyone could simply >stencil 3" letters onto the sides of a bottle. So, in that case I feel >at least this sticker(or someother official type of marking)would be >appropriate. > > (2)As for weather or not I think trimix instructors should observe each >student switch gases. I do! And I watch them like a hawk! Remember this, >all instructors are not created equal. No matter what agency your with. > > (3)There are many newbie's to technical diving that are required to >wear equipment differently than they have in the past. Some of thoughs >find wearing 1 stage alittle tuff to get use to, often due to the lack >of inwater time with this new equipment. Now we are going to hang 2 >maybe 3 cylinders off the left side of their harness. How is this going >to be either easier and/or safer for the newbie technical student. Also, >why would it make it easier for the newbie student to be less confused >as to which gas they are reaching for by wearing them in this fashion >apposed to wearing them like most agencies promote(higher PO2 towards >the right). Needless to say most newbie techdiver students are neither >riding a scotter or wearing a canister light. > > Whitney or Ian or maybe it was even George said to look this up on >their web page but I haven't found this yet. > >(4) There are NOT a bunch of courses to take at the degree you try to >show it. You can take training to what ever degree you would like. And >choose what ever avenue you would like to go. Maybe wrecks, caves, >rebreathers or just plain deep. Would'nt quality diver education take >some time. You don't graduate with a college degree after a quick >spelling test in high school. Seeing that all of this slamming is about >agency inqualities why would you prefer that people take less training >and then send them out telling them that their something that their >not(a competent tech diver).Your sounding like the TDI advertisement I >read the other day by the way you put it. Are you a TDI instructor by >chance? Also you say IANTD is trying to soak students. Students have >choices to take thier training to the next levels as long as their ready >for it. They often know if their ready or not. And as you put it, not >all people are ready to be a tech diver. Small increments offer them the >opportunity to decide weather or not to proceed to the next level. If I >were to put a dollar sign on the time that I teach I would probally me >making a buck a hour. That don't sound like soaking to me. > > Here are some of what you say is to much training. > > (a)A basic EANx is a course offered to though who are strictly >interested in a safer breathing medium for recreational diving. > (b) Advanced EANx is a course offered to thoughs who wish to extend >their knowledge of EANx. Most of the time this is combined with a deep >air program( don't panic, this is still within 130fsw). > (c) Than there are Technical courses for thoughs who wish to venture >beyond the 130fsw mark. Even though the latest gatherings have showed >that trimix is the preferred way to go, most agencies still offer Adv. >Deep Air and/or Technical EANx courses to thoughs who still want to dive >helium-less possibly due to many things such as cost, availability or >what ever reason. Also for thoughs who want, there is a intermidiate >trimix courses designed for light trimixures up to about 200fsw. I say >about because I'm not sure of everyones standard or outlines. > (d) then there is full trimix.Training is usually within 300fsw. >Each of these courses requires more and more responsibility on the part >of the student in order to progress. I think thats a good call. Than we >have (e). > (e)is for ect. cave, wreck, rebreather or whatever else. Should >students be required to know ALL of this if they are just planning to >blow a few bubbles on a wreck at 100-200-300 feet. > > Sorry, but I don't feel that I am soaking anyone and theres no pressure >put on anyone by me. They can choose to learn under me or go somewere >else. Sometimes it takes time to get were your wanting to go. And every >once in a while people find out that you don't really want to go there >after all. If that were the case and I was the student I'd me much >happier that I did'nt enroll in a super duper high tech course right off >the bat. Like I said before, I don't do this for the money. > IANTD is not killing anyone. Mistakes do! Mistakes don't = murder. And >I apologize if I did'nt sound sympathetic enough. My sincere condolences >go out to the families and loved ones of all diving fatalities. > > Hopefully this will be interpreted properly and for thoughs of you >that want to conplain to me about my spelling, FUK U. > > John Walker >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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