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"Men dig their graves with their own teeth and die more by those fated instruments than by the weapons of their enemies. Thomas Moffett Healths Improvement 1600 a.d. This should be the last of my posts on this issue. Hopefully we have all had fun and learned a lot. However, this debate is getting old and too great a drain on valuable time. Now that the water is clear I will have to go diving instead. This is a pretty long post (sorry) but includes the references that several people asked for and addresses the last round of major topics. Books could and have been written on this subject so I will leave you to read them for more information. One last time (I hope). Tom Mount writes>> I would challenge Ken to produce evidence of kidney, liver or heart problems from a diet such as the zone or the protein power plan. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom, how much evidence do you want that excess protein in the diet is bad for you? I can have it delivered ups but I think they have a 70 pound limit per package so you will have to get several different boxes. Is this OK? To be sure, excess carbs can turn into fat but remember that excess protein can cause a host of other more serious problems, including weight gain. These problems are not immediately obvious but very well documented and consistently correlated with high protein diets. Obviously, increased water can mitigate this damage though I would say that there is not enough research to assert the damage is eliminated. Dan is right in his assertion that few, if any, of the studies mandated 2 gallons/day of water. Terry is correct in saying that these many of these studies do not focus on high end athletes though they often work with exercise routines. Keep in mind that a very small percentage of the people on this list are really athletes (even less that are of the caliber Terry works with) and that few of you will be able to maintain a 2 gallon/day water consumption. Actually most people are seriously dehydrated and very few will keep up with this high water need (although I support it 100%). Remember, that regardless of your diet water is tremendously beneficial. I would agree that you can mitigate (still not convinced you can eliminate) the damage of high protein if on a very high water consumption regime. However, this does not reduce the implications of high protein damage. High levels of protein in the body are potentially very damaging. Remember that protein is constructed from about 20 different amino acids combined to form more than 50,000 different proteins. Every amino has a hydrogen atom, an amino group, an acid group with a variable group that makes it different. When insufficient calories are eaten relative to energy needs (usually not enough carbs) the body will use them for energy and they will not be available for muscle regeneration. This is why people assumed that starving individuals needed more protein when they really needed more calories. When too much protein is eaten excess amino acids are sent to the liver where the amino group is broken off (deamination) leaving a potential energy source that can turn into fat if not utilized. The removed ammonia is where the real trouble starts. It is a powerful alkali so to protect itself the liver will try to dilute it by engorging with blood (a condition known as hypertrophy), converting it to less powerful compound urea. This is where the excess water that Dan and Terry insist upon helps out. A big priority for the body is to prevent large pH changes and excess protein encourages just that. Therefore, the excess of alkali also forces the body to leach calcium from the bones in a further attempt to bring the pH back in line. This is why high protein diets result in increased risk of liver damage, kidney failure and osteoporosis- not to mention heart disease from the fat in meat and cancer from meat that can putrefy into carcinogenic compounds. I can only begin to address this question adequately in the context of an e-mail. A book or several books may be more appropriate. We started this discussion relative to fitness and I have tried to narrow it to that. If we are to move into the arena of health and disease it would get seriously embarrassing. Tom, there is such a huge body of evidence that exists about disease from the use of animal products that I would have to hire a secretary just to type my e-mail. In nearly every case there is a clear and consistent relationship between the type of protein enriched diet you are promoting and disease. Dr. Gio Gori as the deputy director of the National Cancer Institute related, "Until recently, many eyebrows would have been raised by suggesting that an imbalance of normal dietary components could lead to cancer and cardiovascular disease. . . today the accumulation of evidence makes this notion not only possible but certain. The dietary factors responsible are principally meat and fat intake" There are so many other studies I could cite it would be ridiculous and immensely time consuming. Here are a couple handy references and I will leave it at that. Leonardo Blanche Cancer and other diseases from meat Barbara Parham Whats wrong with eating meat? John Scharfenberg MD Problems with meat Orville Schell Modern Meat Herbert Shelton Exercise T.C. Fry The Cruel Hoax Victoras Kulvinskas Survival in the 21st Century Furthermore, several people have asked me for some good general sources which are easier to sift through: As very good, fairly comprehensive treatment of these issues I like "Diet for a new America" by John Robbins For more comprehensive health oriented treatment "Fit for Life" part one and two by Harvey and Marilyn Diamond are well put together and will get you thinking about things in a totally different light. "Diet for a small planet" by Frances Lappe Is older but still very good reading and treats many of the environmental repercussions of our diet. This book is very enlightening For a focus on Vegan and vegetarian health issues "Vegan Nutrition" by Michael Klaper, M.D. For a serious eye opener try "Silent Spring" by Rachel Carson Tom Mount goes on to say that On veggies much of the soil is so depleted and the types of fertilizer so dangerous that its food value is debatable. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not debatable but measurable and unfortunately declined. Despite the decline in nutrients from soil depletion it is still VERY easy to get more than enough from your food supply. Yet, this is all the more reason to look more for organically grown sources which despite your insinuation- are very healthy and promote more responsible farming practices. You have to keep an eye on this, however, because the big producers dont want us armed with this information and are frantically trying to render the title "organic" meaningless. Did anyone ever wonder why they made it illegal to label dairy items "not produced with growth hormones". These are the kind of efforts food producers practice daily to keep you in the dark about what you eat. Microsoft is collection of fair business angels compared to these powerhouses. Because of processing to insure adequate vitamins, minerals amino acids etc. it is necessary to use supplements . . . >>>>>>>> Necessary is an oversimplification. Actually many sources consider it wasteful and even dangerous. Try reading Dr. Reubens book "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Nutrition" for some really enlightening information. Or Robert McCarter Ph.D "Unnecessary Supplements" Dr. Myron Winick, the director of the Institute of Human Nutrition at Columbia University, indicates that some of the old standby vitamins long considered totally innocuous are producing medical problems, including nerve damage, mild intestinal distress, and fatal liver damage. This is most likely for supplement junkies but I recommend being careful about what you decide to use and getting some more measured information. Many people think that these supplements are only processed by the body as waste and eliminated. I never did get an answer on that whey protein you recommend. What research have you done on that supplement? All calories are not equal. Those wishing to lose weight frequently go into extreme low fat high carb diets. Protein around 15%. Guess what since this type diet has become popular we have developed far more fat people in the USA especially. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom, are you seriously trying to blame the fattening population on the above proportions???? It probably has nothing to do with decrease in activity, increase in packaged foods with refined sugars etc., the idea that pills and "magic diets" are the way to go or this countries obsession with food. Not to mention our general something for nothing philosophy. >>>>>>>>>> To fatten a pig a diet of 61% carbs, 29% fat and 10% protein is recommended by the USDA. So how can someone hope not to gain weight if they follow a similar diet. >>>>>>> OK, so what is your point? First you talk about low fat and then you put this in with 29% fat. What are you trying to say? This is too high a fat content. 6. On protein if you are active and want to optimize performance or strength you should ingest about 1 gm. of protein for every pound of lean body (muscle) mass. This equates to about 200grams of protein for you which is roughly 40% protein. The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition goes for 2.5% The World Health Organization, The Food and Nutrition board and the National Research Council all stay between this 2.4% and a high of 8%. Even the USRDA which typically more than doubles the accepted need goes for no more than 11%. Just because it is interesting I wanted to mention that the National Academy of Science has indicated, "that there is little evidence that increased muscular activity increases the need for protein." However, there is research that indicates that athletes will burn some protein for fuel (apparently more so for men). As Panos post discusses, the body will use whatever energy source available with carbs much preferred. The use of protein as fuel will occur but typically only when there are not enough available carbs. Either way it is my opinion that these high protein diets are not good for you. If you are really a high end athlete then you end up using some protein for fuel. Either way I would be generally more concerned about excess protein than not enough unless I was trying to function in a seriously long range demanding activity, in which case I would be willing to take certain risks to accomplish my goal. In this case my fear of running out of fuel (carbs then protein) which would cause me to destroy muscle would result in a more careful treatment. Generally more attention to caloric intake and heavy carb loading. For 95% of the population I dont see that as relevant and is actually likely to be dangerous. Actually, studies reported in the Journal of Applied Physiology 1995 "Carbohydrate loading and metabolism during exercise", indicate that increases of up to 75% carbs have been shown to increase muscle glycogen concentration by 41% translating into an increase in performance (pedal to exhaustion) by 45%. Read that 45%. This is pretty significant. Then you say," I find that having my total carbs 15% then plus fruit, fiber, and vegetables around 30 to 40% with fat around 20 to 25% ( should never be less than 10% or more than 30%) and protein for the balance. To lose weight I up the protein to 60% and cut the carbs back. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is 15% plus about 35% plus about 50% more protein (which is too high for you in my opinion). However, what about the protein from your vegetables? Do you discount them? You are aware that vegetables contain amino acids that are synthesized into protein, right? Amino acids from either source are synthesize into the needed proteins which if not used can increase weight gain and lead to the problems discussed above. 8. High protein diets keep the metabolic rate high, it satisfies the appetite and it preserves lean body mass. If followed correctly a high protein diet will produce Lower Cholesterol, more HDL, lower triglicerides, reduces (yes reduced) risk of heart disease, lower blood pressure and a stable blood sugar level. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom, suspiciously lacking in all of your assertions are references to any studies. High protein diets will produce lower rates as compared to what, to whom, in what situation?????? This is the same kind of propaganda that the meat, dairy and tobacco companies have used for years. There is really no information in the above assertion. You dont give any comparisons. Is this as compared to a group eating red meat 20 times a week. This seems more about less bad than good. Please cite a source and I will go read it. You can follow the same type diet as either a veggie or meat eater. If you research ot out(non meat manufacture research) you will discover that red meat up to three times a week has benefit, but more than 3 times a week is additive to cancer and other health related problems. >>>>>>>>>> OK, Tom enough of this. Point me to this study. Red meat has benefit in what way? As compared to what? To who? With what as a baseline. I have never said that you could not be healthy and eat meat but I really want to see the research that says in order to be healthier than I am now I need to eat red meat three times a week. Ken writes>>>> I agree with you on this except one thing. I also believe fruits should be limited (not excluded) because of the natural sugar content. . . . Diabetic symptoms can occur by overdoing it on the sugars, even simple sugars like those found in fruits. >>>>>>>>>. Diabetic symptoms? Are you trying to indicate that people will have blood sugar problems or that they will actually become diabetics? Both are oversimplifications. I have never known a person to eat too many fruits. Fruitarians take this too far but they are very rare. Things like the "grapefutit" diet are scams just like the rest of these overnight miracle workers so we agree on this. However, the latest research indicates that fructose can assist a diabetic situation, especially when eaten alone on an empty stomach. Individuals with diabetes should consult a doctor and read a lot on this issue. I will not begin to dispense this type of medical advice in such a forum but I will say there are a huge contingent of people that successfully manage diabetes from diet alone and many that will move from insulin dependency with responsible changes. "Fit for Life" invests some energy on this topic as do dozens of other sources. It is really pretty stinking difficult to eat too much fruit. It is filled with life giving nutrients and hydration (up to 80% water). Going vegetarian is one possible solution, but it's not easy to do for most. . . >>>>>>>>>>> This is like saying that deep diving with Helium is a possible solution but not easy for most. Nothing that is worthwhile is easy. The whole concept of quick fixes and easy solutions are exactly what put people in this situation in the first place. Although getting good information is imperative this is true for any diet. Whatever diet you choose to eat learn something about what you eating. The popular American diet is pre-wired for failure. Education if essential for any diet. Vegan is too damn tough for all but the die hardest. . . . >>>>>>> Essentially the same comments as above keeping in mind that a reduction in dairy is beneficial- dont buy all that dairy propaganda. The reason that being vegan is harder is due to stereotypes and the stranglehold of dairy industries. When at home I can easily replicate just about any meal up to and including fetechini alfredo. This could be even more easily done by people that are actually good cooks. On any diet read and learn. It does seem interesting that all human infants are born with the ability to digest lactose and no ability to digest starch. Adults, however, have the ability to digest starch but more than half (about 60%) lose the ability to digest lactose. Milk is designed as a fuel for infants. It may be time to grow up and reduce our dependence on milk. Keep in mind that dairy production is going to increasingly become a huge problem as we continue to add all these dairy farms in response to the efforts of this 140 million dollar advertising campaign. It is easy to talk about clean water problems while milk demand forces the creation of more dairy farms and nightmarish management plans. It is harder to actually do something about it. Dairys are like dumps- nobody wants them in their area. Yet, they are different than dumps because we dont need them. They are a luxury that we cant afford, especially in such tremendous excess. And meat eating isn't a bad thing either. The best thing is to just go on a well balanced nutrious diet and regular exercise. >>>>>>>>> Bad is relative, subjective, and imprecise. In many ways it is clearly bad for your health and the cohesive nature of our environment. In moderation all these can be mitigated but are still issues for concern. I dont want everyone to leave with the idea I am some detached, militant vege on a war path. I grew up in a meat and potatoes family complete with all the standard ideas about nutrition shoved down my throat. I am, however, very tired of all the propaganda laid on us by dishonest, unethical advertising claims. This frustration is far beyond nutrition, encompassing the environment, politics. . . . . . You are all free to do as you want but I encourage you to realize the bulk of your education (and that of your doctors) is tailor made by the very industries that have the most to gain by meat and dairy dependence. I also encourage you to recognize the tremendous impact a meat based diet can have on your health, the environment and the animal population. This has all been fun but is growing old for all of us. I leave you with a 2,000 year old writing by Socrates Socrates: And there will be animals of many other kinds, if people eat them? Glaucon: Certainly. Socrates: And living in this way we shall have much greater need of physicians than before? Glaucon: Much greater. Socrates: And the country which was enough to support the original inhabitants will be too small now, and not enough? Glaucon: Quite true. Socrates: Then a slice of our neighbors land will be wanted by us for pasture and tillage and they will want a slice of ours, if, like ourselves, they exceed the limit of necessity, and give themselves up to the unlimited accumulation of wealth? Glaucon: That, Socrates will be inevitable. Socrates: And so we shall go to war, Glaucon, shall we not? Best to all, JJ -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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