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Hey folks, This thread crossed my desk and several people asked for my comments. While I appreciate and agree with Dans focus on fitness I have a different opinion on some of the dietary convictions. Dan, I think you should be commended for your efforts to make people aware of these issues. I often wish I had more time to educate and be educated on some of these forums but the low signal to noise ratio often makes that difficult. While I dont have the time to get embroiled in days of debate I decided to toss in my two cents for those that are interested. The vege diet has undergone significant evolution over the years and is frequently misunderstood and inaccurately represented. Conventional "wisdom" typically promoted a meat based diet often under the encouragement and grand benevolence of the meat and dairy industries. Before we hold too much stock in these age old ideas always keep in mind that the source of much of this information is often pretty tainted with self serving messages. Similar to our plight with the tobacco industry you have to be very cautious with most of this information and the "studies" that are marched to center stage. There are a multitude of reasons one may choose to either reduce or eliminate Meat and Dairy from their diets, not the least of which is health based. I will largely ignore the somewhat compelling issue of our right to enslave millions of animals to a putrid existence and spend only a little time on the tremendous burden our meat based diet places on the environment. Both of these issues are handled well in many books, perhaps most notably Diet for a New America by John Robbins whose life is an interesting story unto itself. Most people would be amazed when confronted with the phenomenal environmental cost of meat based diets. For example, about one half of our harvested acreage goes to feed livestock but for every 16 pounds of this grain we get only one pound back as meat. However, that 16 pounds of grain has 21 times more calories and eight times more protein than a pound of hamburger. Actually during WWI Denmark was cut off from all supplies and were forced to deal with the possibility of great food shortages. In response they opted to stop feeding the grain to their cattle and instead use it to feed the people. Sort of a mass vege experiment with about 3million subjects. During the one year of these tight restrictions the mortality rate from disease was by far the lowest in recorded history with over a 34% drop. Evidence abounds that longer healthier lives are had by vegetarians worldwide. Furthermore, the toll on our precious drinking water is tremendous with one pound of steak requiring 2,500 gallons of water meaning that just 10 pounds of steak is more than my entire household use of water for one full year. This ignores the staggering levels of pollution from both meat and dairy propagation that result in highly inefficient use of our resources. But I digress. We were focused on fitness itself in a more narrowly defined scope. Dan Volker writes>>> I would not argue that a vegetarian diet can be healthier for a "sick" person--one with heart disease or other ailment, than a meat eating diet. >> JJ So, it is OK or perhaps advisable for a "sick" person with heart disease etc. to treat their malady (almost certainly the result of their meat based diet in the first place) with a vegetarian diet but not wise to take clearly beneficial, preventative measures? Dan writes>> I am talking about eating to become an elite level athlete---which is what a tech diver should strive to be--- and a meat eating diet is necessary . . . . If your not sick already, you should get on an optimal diet.. That means you can not be a strict vegetarian. >> JJ I am sorry Dan but this does not really make any sense to me. If you are sick get on a vege diet to cure your problems but otherwise make sure to eat meat which is directly (and I mean directly) linked to the big maladies. As for the need to eat and train toward more elite status, I am fine with that. But to claim this is not possible with a vegetarian diet is inaccurate. Actually, vegetarians and even your "stinky" Vegans do quite well in fitness studies, typically outstripping the meat eating competition. While it is true that a limited portion of high athletes practice vege diets this is more a reflection of their limited numbers in the population and the relatively ignorant nutritional base in western medicine. Remember that a lot of the education in our schools is derived from meat and dairy propaganda. This is like asking the tobacco companies whether we should smoke. Oh wait, we did that one and look where it got us. How about some studies to back up my assertions>> Yale University ran a series of tests to compare the stamina and strength of meat eaters and vegetarians with three groups: meat-eating athletes, vegetarian athletes, and sedentary vegetarians. "of the three groups compared, the flesh eaters showed far less endurance than the vegetarians even when the latter were leading a sedentary life." They concluded that the "difference between flesh eaters and vegetarians was due entirely to the difference in their diet" Other studies indicate similar findings with some studies showing up to three times the endurance for vegetarians and 1/5th the recovery time from exhaustion for vegetarians as compared to meat eaters. What about this endurance issue? A Danish group of researchers fed a mixed diet of meat and vegetables to a group finding their average time to muscle failure on a stationary bike was 114 minutes. On a meat and dairy diet this failure dropped to an average of 57 minutes, yet with a vegetarian diet the average was 167 minutes. Back to the athletes You write>>>> How many world class athletes do you think you can convince to destroy their elite level performance, by the inferior nutrition of a vegetarian diet. Have you heard of Dave Scott considered by some to be one of the greatest triatheletes in the world? He won Hawaiis Ironman a record four times, including three years in a row. To my knowledge nobody else has won it more than one time. During those three successive years he broke his own worlds record in the 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile cycle, and 26.2 mile run. He calls the idea that people, and especially athletes, need animal protein a "ridiculous fallacy". Maybe Sixto Linares who has held the world record for the one day triathlon (4.8 mi swim, 185 cycle, 52.4 mi run) and is a vegan (no meat, eggs, dairy) would like to hear how he needs some meat and dairy to be fit. How about Edwin Moses who has dominated a single event probably more than any man in history- going 8 years without losing a single race. Pavo Nurmi set 20 world records in distance running and won 9 Olympic medals . . . . . . I could and will go on if you like, but the point is clear. Vegetarians can easily excel in highly competitive atmospheres. The list of successful athletes that are vegetarians is really amazing given the conventional wisdom. This "wisdom" coupled with the surgery, drugs and the big business that dominate western medicine have been pervasive forces for stagnation in our nutritional evolution. Dan Volker writes>>> I bet there is an amazingly high correlation between becoming a vegan and becoming gay---are you light on your feet ??? >> JJ Maybe that is why Edwin Moses was so great-light on his feet. I guess his wife and kids and my girlfriend for that matter would like to know about this correlation.<g> Dan continues>> Also, I'd say there is an extremely large number of strict vegetarians, who are so unbalanced in their nutrition, that they stink. That's right, plenty of these vegans stink. Not ALL of them, but enough for it to reflect on the diet. >> So far off base as to barely warrant discussion. Actually the research indicates the opposite. Not that I am very interested but double blind studies have indicated just the opposite, especially as pertains to waste elimination. You see rotting flesh has such a pleasant odor. I will not even ask where this conviction comes from- but it is certainly not research. If you know some stinky vegans ask them to shower it is certainly not their diet that is the problem. Dan continues>> The facts are Terry has created custom diets and training plans for world famous athletes, for 20 years. His people win, because of his diets and training >> I dont doubt that Terry or you have a great deal of knowledge and I am very interested in what you have to say. As I said you should be commended for you your efforts as should Terry. For the most part we agree on fitness issues. However, to claim that Terry is THE reason that these people win while claiming that vegetarians excel DESPITE their diet seems less than fair. Dan writes>> the bottom line, vegans are rare in the world of elite strength. . or aerobic power sports because the diet is too much of a liability. >> Sorry I would argue that they are less common because they are less common in the population as a whole and because reactionary people and rigid, institution based nutritional educations discourage other approaches. Lets look briefly at just one of the heavy criticisms of vegetarian diets- protein. The question really is not how vegetarians can get enough protein it is about how meat eaters can avoid getting too much. Too much protein is associated with a host of medical problems and the high protein diets such as the zone are starting to draw real fire. Even Arnold Schwarzenegger agrees that people go way overboard on protein with more than 10% gaining on excessive. There is actually a ton of research indicating this is a non-issue but how about the one closest to me. In the April issue of Muscle and Fitness (certainly not a mag promoting the kind of fitness I prefer but in keeping with this discussion) there is an article extolling the use of soy protein. The article by Luke R. Bucci, PhD maintains that soy is here to stay "courtesy of its amino-acid compositions and the fact that science is finally catching up with and overtaking public perception". In short, the article goes on to discuss several top groups of athletes (gymnasts and weightlifters) that found increased lean muscle mass (more muscle), less bodyfat, more hemoglobin, and less fatigue. It closes saying that "we now have an abundance of information on soy protein isolates being food for protein quality, muscle support, bodyfat reduction, and improved exercise performance not to mention the already significant effects on cholestoral lowering, prevention of cancer and other health benefits." Dan comments>> If you are so sick you need a vegan diet, you shouldn't be tech or deep cave diving until you get healthy again anyway. >> George and Brent will indeed be disappointed to hear that I have been forced to give up cave diving <g> I cant play anymore but I want to thank Dan for sparking an interest that forced me to put down a few of my thoughts. Debates like this are never completely resolved but they always spur interest and hopefully individual efforts to gain information. I think the effort that Terry and Dan are putting into getting information our there is great. Either way if you leave this discussion with the understanding that good fitness can really change your life than it has been worthwhile. I have to disappear for awhile now as I have piles of work to do and I still have to get to the pool for my second workout today. I will try to amble my way through the workout and make sure to tell the lifeguards to keep a special eye on me. After all I forgot to tear into some flesh today<g> Food for thought. Best wishes, happy eating, and great diving, JJ -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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